Python: So you used spaces and tabs for indentation? NOW DIE!
Mixing spaces and tabs should be a warcrime.
Find me anyone who claims they use tabs for indentation, and I bet I’ll find at least one case where they’re using both tabs and spaces.
The only safe way to avoid war crimes is to avoid tabs.
Don’t IDEs just replace any tab with 4 spaces anyways? Pretty sure VSCode does
I don’t use an ide, but I wrote a script that replaces any space I type with four.
I haven’t worked out all the use cases yet, though.
That’s a setting in the editor.
I use the tab key but I’m pretty sure vs code converts that to spaces
Depends on your settings, but yeah typically it does
It worries me that a programmer wouldn’t know for sure what’s happening when they hit tab, and that it’s a setting that can be changed.
I mean I was 99% sure it convert to spaces, I cannot say I was certain. The default settings are fine for what I do, I only ever had to change the spacing from 4 to 2 spaces once when dealing with someone else’s files
Linux kernel?
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/v4.10/process/coding-style.html#indentation
edit: oh python, nevermind
The kernel definitely mixes tabs and spaces:
https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/latest/source/block/bfq-iosched.c#L390
Why would I use spaces if I use tabs? Also, it seemd like a huge waste of time hitting the space bar so many times…
Why would I use spaces if I use tabs?
To comply with Python’s best practices:
https://peps.python.org/pep-0008/
Also, if you work on the Linux Kernel, you’ll see a mix of tabs and spaces:
https://elixir.bootlin.com/linux/latest/source/block/bfq-iosched.c#L390
Also, it seemd like a huge waste of time hitting the space bar so many times…
You use an editor that doesn’t auto-indent?
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I use vi without syntax highlighting.
Removed by mod
Good. Spaces and tabs for indentation should never be mixed in any language other than Whitespace.
Some people use tabs for indentation and spaces for alignment. It kind of gets the pros of tabs (user configurable indent-width) and the pros of spaces (alignment). That doesn’t work in Python where you can’t align stuff and the interpreter doesn’t allow mixing tabs with spaces, but in other languages it is a possible style.
There are no pros to tabs. Configure tabs to a number of spaces.
Rust developer: I’d like to compile some code
Rust compiler: the fuck you are
The rust compiler holds your hand, wraps you in blankets, makes you hot chocolate, kisses you on the forehead before it gently and politely points out what you did wrong and how you can solve it step-by-step. It would never think of something as heinous as swearing at you, shame on you for insulting my wife’s honour like this.
Rust compiler is passive agressive, like:
“There’s an error at line 286 because you still don’t know how to use the borrow checker after all this time ♥️”
I don’t know from where this legend comes from but lifetimes/concurrency/macros errors are brain-hurting.
Most of the time I find myself dropping project because I wrote my program in a correct way but Rust just does not like how it is designed lol. I can’t get shit done with this language
I need a rust compiler in my life 😍
except when it gives errors about lifetimes of some object.
boy, that makes my brain hurt
The rust compiler produces a flawless understanding of your code, and then quits out because understanding that code is a Nightly-only feature and you’re using the stable build.
Damn right. And once it compiles… it works.
Except the C++ “Core dumped” line is telling you it just wrote a file out with the full state of the program at the time of the crash, you can load it up and see where it crashed and then go and look at what every local variable was at the time of the crash.
Pretty sure you can even step backwards in time with a good debugger to find out exactly how you got to the state you’re currently in.
Where does it write the file
Nobody knows
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On a secret FBI server somewhere where they watch your failures and laugh
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If you are using systemd, there’s a tool called coredumpctl.
I believe it’s
/var/lib/apport/coredumpon Ubuntu.imagine if it, like, told you this so you didn’t have to find out about it via a post on lemmy
imagine if it like, read that file and gave you a stack trace
gdb gives you waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than a stack trace.
Imagine if you knew the most basic foundational features of the language you were using.
Next we’ll teach you about this neat thing called the compiler.
I’m not a C/C++ dev, but isn’t
apportUbuntu’s crash reporter? Why would dumps be going into there?Though on a rhetorical thought, I am aware of systemd’s
coredumptctlso perhaps its collecting dumps the same way systemd does.https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
It intentionally acts as an intercept for such things, so that core dumps can be nicely packaged up and sent to maintainers in a GUI-friendly way so maintainers can get valuable debugging information even from non-tech-savvy users. If you’re running something on the terminal, it won’t be intercepted and the core dump will be put in the working directory of the binary, but if you executed it through the GUI it will.
Assuming, of course, you turn crash interception on- it’s off by default since it might contain sensitive info. Apport itself is always on and running to handle Ubuntu errors, but the crash interception needs enabled.
i mean you’re expected to know the basic functioning of the compiler when you use it
My favorite compile error happened while I was taking a Haskell class.
ghc: panic! (the ‘impossible’ happened)
The issue is plainly stated, and it provides clear next steps to the developer.
I had a similar error, though not from the compiler
Error message just readthis should never happen
Joke on you until the python program segfaults
Nevermind that the C++ program is two orders of magnitude faster when completed.
I would love to learn and use Rust but I’m a embedded systems guy. Everything of consequence is C and C++.
Embedded C entered the chat
Your loop had a race condition, so we let the smoke out for you.
Ho hoo, that isn’t smoke, it’s steam, from the steamed rams we’re having! Mmm, steamed rams.
gdb: Am I a joke to you?
Yes. It’s a surprisingly bad debugger the more you think about it. I use it largely in assembly and it loves to spit out random errors about memory it tried to access based on the current register state. The shortcuts are kind of dumb.
It certainly works but I wouldn’t call it a pleasure to use.
Ex: try
disp x/1i $eipoften just doesn’t work.
Where’s rust?
Rust: this garbage code is beneath me, come back when you have your shit together.
Rust required you to fix all the errors before running the code.
Runtime errors are still a thing.
Compared to that trio, they are a rarity that make people excited just to spot one.
Runtime errors are rare? Interesting. I guess it depends on how much error handling the dev additionally wants to do.
Compilation: top row, runtime: button row.
Imagine unironically praising Java.
Java is a traditional and conservative language, which has its strong upsides, like the syntax being familiar to many people who haven’t used the language before. It’s a language that brought us the JVM, gave a job to many people and established fundamentals for other languages to inspire and improve on. If you don’t like Java, you can just use another language for the JVM, like Scala, Kotlin or Clojure.
and inspired C#, which is pretty rad! (humble opinion… preparing for downvotes because I don’t get the feeling lemmy is where M$ devs hang out)
You only named one upside, I can’t think of any other, and C-like syntax is pretty common, so it’s not much of an upside. It’s at least debatable whether the JVM is a good thing at all - the majority of languages get along perfectly well without it, and there’s no reason to believe the ones that do target it wouldn’t be doing just fine if it didn’t exist. It’s weird to say Java gave a job to anybody - the demand to have software written resulted in programmers being hired; if Java hadn’t been pushed on the market by Sun, it would have just been another language. Java didn’t establish any fundamentals at all, it just borrowed from other places. While all three of the other languages you mention are interesting, for sure, I’m not sure why somebody who doesn’t like Java should limit themselves to JVM languages.
The one thing I can say about java; the kinds of people who like Java tend to really like Java. Everyone else just leaves them to it.
And the people hating on it somehow never used any version above 8, which is 10 years old and EOL.
I’ve used Java 21 pretty extensively, and it’s still comically bad compared to various alternatives, even apples-to-apples alternatives like C#. The only reason to use Java is that you’ve already been using Java.
it’s still comically bad compared to various alternatives, even apples-to-apples alternatives like C#.
I’d be interested to hear why. IMO Java has the superior ecosystem, runtime(s!), and community. The best part is that you don’t even HAVE to use java to access all this - you can just use kotlin, groovy, scala,… instead.
In terms of the language itself, while it (still) lacks some more modern language features, it has improved massively in that area as well, and they’re improving at a significant rate still. It also suffers from similar issues as PHP, where it has some old APIs that they don’t want to get rid of (yet?), but overall it’s a solid language.
Same could be said about PHP
Having used PHP and Java extensively in my career, it’s always entertaining to read what people think about these languages.
I haven’t touched PHP since college, so about a decade, but back then I compared it to a very disorganized but well equipped toolbox. Everything you need to do your projects is there, but it’s scattered through 12 different unorganized drawers and cubbies, there’s an annoying mix of metric and imperial stuff, plus some random bits and bobs you inherited from your grandfather that you have no idea what they do.
The ole’ single C++ error turning into 600 lines of issues
let’s not act like Java’s error log is useful
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you can follow any exception down to the exact line of code
Which is usually not a piece of code written by us and is caused by another piece of code not written by us either
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Does your IDE not highlight the lines written by you in a different colour? Of course that doesn’t help when it’s an error in production!
but you can follow any exception down to the exact line of code (or JNI call, I guess) where the problem occurs.
But, it’s not really where the problem occurred. How often do you get a stack trace and the bug fix is at the line referenced by the stack trace? Almost never. It’s more that it takes you down to the exact line of code where the effects of the problem are bad enough to affect the running of the program. But, the actual problem happened earlier, sometimes much earlier.
For example, NullPointerException isn’t actually the problem, it’s a symptom of the problem. Something didn’t get initialized properly, and nobody noticed for a while, until we tried to use it, and got a null pointer. Sometimes it’s easy to go from the effect (null pointer) to the cause (uninitialized thing). But, other times that “thing” was passed in, so you have to work backwards to try to figure out where that thing comes from, and why it’s in that broken state.
Sure, it’s better than nothing, but it’s still frustrating.
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Super-advanced java devs like me do it like
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