I find it bizarre that it’s 2023 and not only is chess still gender-segregated but they’re doubling down on it. It makes sense for physical sports, but chess? Really?
Y’all just scared the girls are gonna wipe the board with you.
I can’t imagine you’ve seen the numbers. Currently the number of fide grand masters totals 1772 men and 41 women. At the rank below, international masters, the numbers are 3893 men and 134 women.
If you were to simply remove titles exclusive to women tomorrow, you would be barring many more women from ever being able to call themselves ‘champion’. How do you imagine that would impact young girls’ willingness to dedicate themselves to the game?
Remember that even if men are at an advantage for strictly cultural reasons (being more encouraged to play the game) that still means they have an advantage.
You may have proven that men have an advantage in the average case due to inherent misogyny but that doesn’t prove that any one particular trans woman has any sort of advantage over the field of cis women. Where is this army of mtf chess players storming the women’s ranks? Why do we have to solve every problem the majority can think of before we’re allowed to solve problems minorities are actually living through?
Even that I don’t get.
Why not just make a bunch of leagues to separate people by skill, and let everyone play in whatever league they fit in skill whise regardless of gender.
That completely eliminates the problem with trans womens “unfair advantage” when playing in the womens league too.
Because then there wouldn’t be women competing in the top leagues of many sports. Men have a huge physical advantage. On marathons, for instance, there’s a >10 minute gap. And people cannot watch each of these separate leagues, they usually want to watch the best in any sports class. It also wouldn’t motivate women to play amateur sports if they get completely destroyed by most men.
The current sex-based split is imo still the fairest, though it does indeed cause some issues. The naming might not be ideal. The male class is basically the “open” class. Anyone can compete in it whenever they want. The women’s class exists solely to give people who have not recently been under the influence of testosterone and other male hormones a chance to compete with other people with their body type. That’s not only women, but should also allow for AFAB non-binary and trans guys as long as they haven’t started T.
That’s basically it afaik. Chess has been around long enough that it was originally man’s game, then they started letting women compete but only against other women. The reason why I don’t think there’s been a significant challenge to it is that with physical competitions often being segregated, I don’t think anyone really stopped and thought about the fact that the segregation is pointless. I think they were just like, “competitions are usually segregated by gender, makes sense for chess to be segregated” without stopping to think about why competitions are usually segregated.
However, I’m not a huge chess person. I liked it as a kid but it doesn’t even remotely appeal to me anymore. So my info might be wrong, and if there are any chess historians who want to correct me, go for it!
I’ve also heard that some women prefer this system, that the chance of them being harassed is much lower in a segregated environment. I am also not a chess guy, but having been to many Magic tourneys, I can totally understand the thought process.
Definitely. I never participated in any MTG tourneys because just the harassment I faced in the shops and from local players was enough. It’s much better today, though. But you still have the problem that when girls and women avoid playing with boys and men (often for good reason) you will always have less growth in that specific group.
I think what also reinforces this cycle is external and internal(!) stereotypes.
Additionally, because you have fewer strong female players, and since they segregate the game, you therefore also have fewer strong female teachers and role models.
There is also a very strange dynamic between kids and teens starting in elementary school where the boys often drive out the girls from specific activities. It’s only anecdotal but I’ve seen it twice here in my neighborhood. In the school and in the community center a higher ranked chess player offeres free courses to teach the kids chess.
None of the girls stay when they are offered a more friendly environment like the dance class. Because you will always have a group of boys socialised to be more aggressive (pulling hair, being ultra competitive, etc.) and girls being socialised to rather avoid conflict. I know many boys also don’t like this atmosphere but they will be more like “I need to be more like the other boys since I am a boy” while the girls we be like “I don’t fit in here since I am a girl”.
I find it bizarre that it’s 2023 and not only is chess still gender-segregated but they’re doubling down on it. It makes sense for physical sports, but chess? Really?
Y’all just scared the girls are gonna wipe the board with you.
I can’t imagine you’ve seen the numbers. Currently the number of fide grand masters totals 1772 men and 41 women. At the rank below, international masters, the numbers are 3893 men and 134 women.
If you were to simply remove titles exclusive to women tomorrow, you would be barring many more women from ever being able to call themselves ‘champion’. How do you imagine that would impact young girls’ willingness to dedicate themselves to the game?
Remember that even if men are at an advantage for strictly cultural reasons (being more encouraged to play the game) that still means they have an advantage.
You may have proven that men have an advantage in the average case due to inherent misogyny but that doesn’t prove that any one particular trans woman has any sort of advantage over the field of cis women. Where is this army of mtf chess players storming the women’s ranks? Why do we have to solve every problem the majority can think of before we’re allowed to solve problems minorities are actually living through?
Even that I don’t get. Why not just make a bunch of leagues to separate people by skill, and let everyone play in whatever league they fit in skill whise regardless of gender.
That completely eliminates the problem with trans womens “unfair advantage” when playing in the womens league too.
Because then there wouldn’t be women competing in the top leagues of many sports. Men have a huge physical advantage. On marathons, for instance, there’s a >10 minute gap. And people cannot watch each of these separate leagues, they usually want to watch the best in any sports class. It also wouldn’t motivate women to play amateur sports if they get completely destroyed by most men.
The current sex-based split is imo still the fairest, though it does indeed cause some issues. The naming might not be ideal. The male class is basically the “open” class. Anyone can compete in it whenever they want. The women’s class exists solely to give people who have not recently been under the influence of testosterone and other male hormones a chance to compete with other people with their body type. That’s not only women, but should also allow for AFAB non-binary and trans guys as long as they haven’t started T.
Why was it separated in the first place? Was there any reason besides woman bad?
That’s basically it afaik. Chess has been around long enough that it was originally man’s game, then they started letting women compete but only against other women. The reason why I don’t think there’s been a significant challenge to it is that with physical competitions often being segregated, I don’t think anyone really stopped and thought about the fact that the segregation is pointless. I think they were just like, “competitions are usually segregated by gender, makes sense for chess to be segregated” without stopping to think about why competitions are usually segregated.
However, I’m not a huge chess person. I liked it as a kid but it doesn’t even remotely appeal to me anymore. So my info might be wrong, and if there are any chess historians who want to correct me, go for it!
I’ve also heard that some women prefer this system, that the chance of them being harassed is much lower in a segregated environment. I am also not a chess guy, but having been to many Magic tourneys, I can totally understand the thought process.
Definitely. I never participated in any MTG tourneys because just the harassment I faced in the shops and from local players was enough. It’s much better today, though. But you still have the problem that when girls and women avoid playing with boys and men (often for good reason) you will always have less growth in that specific group.
I think what also reinforces this cycle is external and internal(!) stereotypes.
Additionally, because you have fewer strong female players, and since they segregate the game, you therefore also have fewer strong female teachers and role models.
There is also a very strange dynamic between kids and teens starting in elementary school where the boys often drive out the girls from specific activities. It’s only anecdotal but I’ve seen it twice here in my neighborhood. In the school and in the community center a higher ranked chess player offeres free courses to teach the kids chess.
None of the girls stay when they are offered a more friendly environment like the dance class. Because you will always have a group of boys socialised to be more aggressive (pulling hair, being ultra competitive, etc.) and girls being socialised to rather avoid conflict. I know many boys also don’t like this atmosphere but they will be more like “I need to be more like the other boys since I am a boy” while the girls we be like “I don’t fit in here since I am a girl”.
Sorry for the rant.