Israel is occupying and oppressing what WOULD have otherwise been a sovereign nation.
Israel is retaliating against a political and military terrorist group
Bullshit. That’s the official government claim, but it’s clear to anyone with even an ounce of objectivity that it’s actually attacking the Palestinian people as a whole. By their OWN assessment they’re killing TWICE as many innocent civilians as Hamas and since they refuse to show any proof, the ratio is likely much worse.
the de facto leaders
More than half of the population wasn’t even BORN (let alone of voting age) the last time they were allowed the opportunity to vote for anyone else and even then they ran on false claims of moderation. They are an illegitimate government and civilians who never voted for them shouldn’t suffer for their atrocities.
disputed territory within Israel’s own borders.
Because of the aforementioned illegal occupation.
Hamas attacked Israel
Yes. Nobody sane is defending Hamas. That doesn’t mean that AT LEAST two civilians needs to die for every Hamas terrorist killed.
desire to wipe Israel off the map
So civilians should die for the desires of their governments? That would be bad news for the equally innocent Israeli civilians.
Israel didn’t just invade their territory randomly.
Might not be random, but sure as hell isn’t proportionate or otherwise in keeping with international humanitarian law.
It’s important to remember that doing nothing isn’t equal to peace
It’s at least as important to remember that the only alternative to “nothing” isn’t “a laundry list of horrific crimes against humanity”. Stow the false dichotomies, please.
Hamas attacked them
Which the fascists are using as an excuse to indiscriminately murder civilians including by denying them basic life necessities such as food, water, electricity, fuel, medical treatment and medicine.
TL;DR: I hope AIPAC or another Israeli government agency is paying you well for your efforts, otherwise it’s just sad for you to be spending so much time and effort regurgitating all the long debunked genocide apologia of an apartheid regime…
Israel is occupying and oppressing what WOULD have otherwise been a sovereign nation.
But it’s not, and if your claim is Gaza just wants to mind it’s own business, I’ll remind you this war started with Hamas invading Israel and killing over a thousand people. If you’d treat them as a sovereign nation, they committed and act of war.
it’s clear to anyone with even an ounce of objectivity that it’s actually attacking the Palestinian people as a whole.
Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, and is integrated throughout. It’s impossible to attack Hamas and not everyone. It’s war, not one of the US’s Quasi-Conflict drone strike situations. These attacks back and forth have been going on for more than 30 years. Hamas’ attack last fall was by far the biggest escalation.
By their OWN assessment they’re killing TWICE as many innocent civilians as Hamas and since they refuse to show any proof, the ratio is likely much worse.
I agree with you about the refusing to show any proof point. I think there should be a UN presence and that’s something I hope the US is pushing behind the scenes. However it’s difficult to hold Israel to a high standard when Hamas consistently targets civilians. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight when both sides aren’t following the rules. I wonder how many conflicts actually follow the Geneva convention?
They are an illegitimate government and civilians who never voted for them shouldn’t suffer for their atrocities.
This is partially what makes it so complex. The only real way to fix that is to destroy Hamas. Do you have a better idea on how to do that? I don’t.
That doesn’t mean that AT LEAST two civilians needs to die for every Hamas terrorist killed
I’m not defending Irsael’s specific actions. I have no idea if they could be more careful. I know that their overreach is why Stuxnet became public, so I could see them overdoing it. However, just like the US has gotten criticized for Drone strikes killing civilians, it’s incredibly difficult to sort out terrorists who blend into the civilian population and don’t follow any of the internal rules of war.
Because of the aforementioned illegal occupation
It’s way more complicated then an “illegal occupation.” The entire region has been a problem dating back thousands of years, and decisions made by the west at the end of World War II are a key part of it. Israel existing at all is a problem for some groups, and we can see how that went last time.
So civilians should die for the desires of their governments?
That’s War. It’s Terrible. Military service is compulsory in Israel too. And remember Hamas started this particular conflict by killing Israeli citizens.
It’s at least as important to remember that the only alternative to “nothing” isn’t “a laundry list of horrific crimes against humanity”. Stow the false dichotomies, please.
I’ve already touched this point talking about their tactics. Those can absolutely be debated. You can criticize them for not allowing third party reporting, the UN, etc. Those are all valid points. I’m talking about in the broad sense that this is a retaliation, not an attack; And Doing nothing is a kin to welcoming more and larger attacks, because Hamas has nothing to lose.
Which the fascists are using as an excuse to indiscriminately murder civilians including by denying them basic life necessities such as food, water, electricity, fuel, medical treatment and medicine.
File this under tactics too. Completely reasonable to question these specifics.
I hope AIPAC or another Israeli government agency is paying you well for your efforts, otherwise it’s just sad for you to be spending so much time and effort regurgitating all the long debunked genocide apologia of an apartheid regime…
I never said I approved of the tactics they are using. I only suggested that the overall idea that there should be Peace or Israel should stop completely is not possible. It’s way more complex than people here understand. I’m not denying it’s an apartheid regime, I just don’t see any good outcome, just bad ones. Most of the time it takes all out war to resolve, and I’d file that firmly under bad.
Is is a complicated history but I’m not sure you have to full story. The disengagement was not an end to occupation. The occupation was an intentional part of the 1967 war. The concept of transfer has been integral to the development of Israel since decades before it’s founding.
You neglected to include what should be done with the terrorist group that started the conflict by invading and killing a thousand Israeli citizens. It’s like you’ve read one side of the conflicts view point and ignored the rest. So you know how many times two state solutions have been negotiated and why they fell through? It’s really difficult to compromise when some people don’t think Israel should even exist. I don’t expect you to solve it, it’s impossible. There’s hopefully some good news coming out today https://apnews.com/article/palestinians-abbas-israel-hamas-war-resignation-1c13eb3c2ded20cc14397e71b5b1dea5
I’m no foreign policy expert, but a 2 state solution seems like the only viable solution that doesn’t involve a genocide and eradication of an entire country and people. Sure it might require international intervention to establish a DMZ like what happened towards the end of the Korean War (from a US perspective) but it would at least stop the senseless killing and greatly reduce the suffering that’s happening right now
I think there are a few things that should be taken into account:
Hamas stated time and time again that their goal is to take over all of the land that is currently Israel and, to put it extremely mildly, make nearly all the Jewish population not be there.
The Oct. 7th attack has shown that Hamas is willing to commit indiscriminate murder, kidnapping and rape to achieve this goal. Some of the the kidnapped civilians are currently held in Gaza.
Israel had no real choice but to launch an attack against Hamas in order to return the kidnapped citizens and neutralize Hamas as a threat. You could say “Yes, that’s because Because of the aforementioned illegal occupation”, but just like the citizens in Gaza have a right to be protected against bombings regardless of what their government did, Israeli citizens have the right to be protected from being murdered, raped or kidnapped.
So, any true solution has to take both these considerations into account. Right now, the Israeli stance is that once Hamas will no longer control Gaza, the war could end (citizens on both sides will be protected). The Hamas stance is that Israel should cease hostilities so they can work on murdering, raping or kidnapping more Israeli citizens. That isn’t to say Israel is just, rather that Israel is willing to accept a solution that stops the killing of both citizen populations, while Hamas is not. The just solution is for the international community to put pressure on both parties to stop hostilities. The problem is that the parts of the world who would like to see a just solution (Eurpoe, the US etc.) are able to put pressure on Israel, while the parts who don’t hold humane values (Iran, Qatar etc.) support Hamas.
Now, regarding the massive civilian casualties in Gaza:
Hamas has spent many years integrating their military capabilities into civilian infrastructure. This was done as a strategy, specifically to make it harder for Israel to harm Hamas militants without harming civilians.
I’m not trying to say that all civilians killing in Gaza are justified, rather that it’s extremely hard to isolate military targets. Most international law regarding warfare states that warring parties should avoid harming civilians as much as possible. Just saying “Israel is killing TWICE as many innocent civilians as Hamas, therefore they’re attacking Palestinian people as a whole” doesn’t take this into account what’s possible under in the current situation.
Israel is occupying and oppressing what WOULD have otherwise been a sovereign nation.
Bullshit. That’s the official government claim, but it’s clear to anyone with even an ounce of objectivity that it’s actually attacking the Palestinian people as a whole. By their OWN assessment they’re killing TWICE as many innocent civilians as Hamas and since they refuse to show any proof, the ratio is likely much worse.
More than half of the population wasn’t even BORN (let alone of voting age) the last time they were allowed the opportunity to vote for anyone else and even then they ran on false claims of moderation. They are an illegitimate government and civilians who never voted for them shouldn’t suffer for their atrocities.
Because of the aforementioned illegal occupation.
Yes. Nobody sane is defending Hamas. That doesn’t mean that AT LEAST two civilians needs to die for every Hamas terrorist killed.
So civilians should die for the desires of their governments? That would be bad news for the equally innocent Israeli civilians.
Might not be random, but sure as hell isn’t proportionate or otherwise in keeping with international humanitarian law.
It’s at least as important to remember that the only alternative to “nothing” isn’t “a laundry list of horrific crimes against humanity”. Stow the false dichotomies, please.
Which the fascists are using as an excuse to indiscriminately murder civilians including by denying them basic life necessities such as food, water, electricity, fuel, medical treatment and medicine.
TL;DR: I hope AIPAC or another Israeli government agency is paying you well for your efforts, otherwise it’s just sad for you to be spending so much time and effort regurgitating all the long debunked genocide apologia of an apartheid regime…
But it’s not, and if your claim is Gaza just wants to mind it’s own business, I’ll remind you this war started with Hamas invading Israel and killing over a thousand people. If you’d treat them as a sovereign nation, they committed and act of war.
Hamas is the governing body of Gaza, and is integrated throughout. It’s impossible to attack Hamas and not everyone. It’s war, not one of the US’s Quasi-Conflict drone strike situations. These attacks back and forth have been going on for more than 30 years. Hamas’ attack last fall was by far the biggest escalation.
I agree with you about the refusing to show any proof point. I think there should be a UN presence and that’s something I hope the US is pushing behind the scenes. However it’s difficult to hold Israel to a high standard when Hamas consistently targets civilians. It’s like bringing a knife to a gun fight when both sides aren’t following the rules. I wonder how many conflicts actually follow the Geneva convention?
This is partially what makes it so complex. The only real way to fix that is to destroy Hamas. Do you have a better idea on how to do that? I don’t.
I’m not defending Irsael’s specific actions. I have no idea if they could be more careful. I know that their overreach is why Stuxnet became public, so I could see them overdoing it. However, just like the US has gotten criticized for Drone strikes killing civilians, it’s incredibly difficult to sort out terrorists who blend into the civilian population and don’t follow any of the internal rules of war.
It’s way more complicated then an “illegal occupation.” The entire region has been a problem dating back thousands of years, and decisions made by the west at the end of World War II are a key part of it. Israel existing at all is a problem for some groups, and we can see how that went last time.
That’s War. It’s Terrible. Military service is compulsory in Israel too. And remember Hamas started this particular conflict by killing Israeli citizens.
I’ve already touched this point talking about their tactics. Those can absolutely be debated. You can criticize them for not allowing third party reporting, the UN, etc. Those are all valid points. I’m talking about in the broad sense that this is a retaliation, not an attack; And Doing nothing is a kin to welcoming more and larger attacks, because Hamas has nothing to lose.
File this under tactics too. Completely reasonable to question these specifics.
I never said I approved of the tactics they are using. I only suggested that the overall idea that there should be Peace or Israel should stop completely is not possible. It’s way more complex than people here understand. I’m not denying it’s an apartheid regime, I just don’t see any good outcome, just bad ones. Most of the time it takes all out war to resolve, and I’d file that firmly under bad.
Is is a complicated history but I’m not sure you have to full story. The disengagement was not an end to occupation. The occupation was an intentional part of the 1967 war. The concept of transfer has been integral to the development of Israel since decades before it’s founding.
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
Gaza Blockade is still Occupation
Dahiya Doctrine
Gaza March for Return Protest
Apartheid
AWRAD Gaza War Poll
PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023
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You neglected to include what should be done with the terrorist group that started the conflict by invading and killing a thousand Israeli citizens. It’s like you’ve read one side of the conflicts view point and ignored the rest. So you know how many times two state solutions have been negotiated and why they fell through? It’s really difficult to compromise when some people don’t think Israel should even exist. I don’t expect you to solve it, it’s impossible. There’s hopefully some good news coming out today https://apnews.com/article/palestinians-abbas-israel-hamas-war-resignation-1c13eb3c2ded20cc14397e71b5b1dea5
I’m no foreign policy expert, but a 2 state solution seems like the only viable solution that doesn’t involve a genocide and eradication of an entire country and people. Sure it might require international intervention to establish a DMZ like what happened towards the end of the Korean War (from a US perspective) but it would at least stop the senseless killing and greatly reduce the suffering that’s happening right now
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I think there are a few things that should be taken into account:
Israel had no real choice but to launch an attack against Hamas in order to return the kidnapped citizens and neutralize Hamas as a threat. You could say “Yes, that’s because Because of the aforementioned illegal occupation”, but just like the citizens in Gaza have a right to be protected against bombings regardless of what their government did, Israeli citizens have the right to be protected from being murdered, raped or kidnapped.
So, any true solution has to take both these considerations into account. Right now, the Israeli stance is that once Hamas will no longer control Gaza, the war could end (citizens on both sides will be protected). The Hamas stance is that Israel should cease hostilities so they can work on murdering, raping or kidnapping more Israeli citizens. That isn’t to say Israel is just, rather that Israel is willing to accept a solution that stops the killing of both citizen populations, while Hamas is not. The just solution is for the international community to put pressure on both parties to stop hostilities. The problem is that the parts of the world who would like to see a just solution (Eurpoe, the US etc.) are able to put pressure on Israel, while the parts who don’t hold humane values (Iran, Qatar etc.) support Hamas.
Now, regarding the massive civilian casualties in Gaza:
I’m not trying to say that all civilians killing in Gaza are justified, rather that it’s extremely hard to isolate military targets. Most international law regarding warfare states that warring parties should avoid harming civilians as much as possible. Just saying “Israel is killing TWICE as many innocent civilians as Hamas, therefore they’re attacking Palestinian people as a whole” doesn’t take this into account what’s possible under in the current situation.