His win is a direct result of the Supreme Court’s decision in a pivotal LGBTQ+ rights case.
Why are headlines about American Christians always the exact opposite of what the Bible wants them to be?
What happened to love thy neighbour and shit
Selective religion to suit their needs. Oldest trick in the literal book.
Jesus was white BTW
/s in case it wasn’t abundantly clear
I bet he had a Midwestern accent too.
I like to imagine the “white Jesus” as having a mid Atlantic accent.
I was going for midwest, because of the “opposite” (dichotomy?) of middle east, white European vs Mediterranean skin tones. Lol.
The mid Atlantic accent would be, in my book, the most “white American” accent I can think of. Imo anyways.
As someone who grew up in a very religious household, I can tell you without a doubt in my mind, the worst people I ever met were the church crowd. Everyone was so nice to each other inside the building but as soon as the service was over, people showed their real colors in the parking lot.
You’d get parents screaming at their kids for “misbehaving” during the boring ass sermon, cars bolting out of their parking spaces with no disregard for other people walking, cars battling each other to try and get out of the lot before the other guy… You know… Cause football was starting soon.
What does america/americans have to do with it? Im pretty sure religious people being hypocrites riding on their high horse while doing awful things has been a thing since long before the US was founded.
As one of the LGBT, I’m fine with this. I want the ability to refuse work to the Religious and Republicans—and I have done so for decades. The difference is, I don’t tell them why. I just say I’m busy. Because even though I want them to burn in a fiery hell, I’m not an asshole.
Cool but where do you draw the line? If a taxi driver refuses to drive you is it still fine? What if a teacher refuses to teach your children? Or if a doctor refuses to treat you?
Taxi? I mean, I guess? If I was a taxi driver and a bunch of people from the Westboro Baptist Church tried to get into my cab, I’d speed off for sure.
Teacher? Hmm. Well, they can try. But, humorously, it’s just like a “conservative” to deny a child an education. It’s all about the kids right? Trash.
Doctor? No. They are governed by rules that prevent that.
Ok, so let’s hope that the supreme court agrees with you and draws the line at taxi drivers. Because today they let photographers discriminate you and tomorrow they can decide that the rules for doctors are unconstitutional.
I understand your fear. But my opinion isn’t going to impact that crooked group. It’s not like I voted for them. Whatever is gonna happen is gonna happen regardless of what you or I do. We’re all fucked. I may as well be allowed to legally discriminate against the people who can legally discriminate against me. 🤷♂️
Do you really want a doctor treat you who despises you? Can you still trust them to do their best?
The real problem lies deeper than this.
So where you live doctors just let people suffer/die if they don’t like them and it’s ok? You don’t have any oversight, expert panels, ethics boards, investigations? That’s wild.
You don’t think there’s a range between doing the bare minimum and giving your best? I don’t say they let you die, or send you away. I said I wouldn’t be sure they treat me with the same effort they treat someone they like (or at least don’t dislike).
I think you watch to much TV. That’s not how medicine works. How do you imagine it? I go to a doctor with migraine and he starts thinking real hard what could be the cause? And if he ‘despises’ me he just doesn’t think as hard?
There are procedures doctors have to follow. If they fail to follow the procedures it’s malpractice. The procedures are the same for all doctors. There’s no ‘look, I did the bare minimum, you can’t punish me’. Either you did what was required or you didn’t. Each time a doctor would mistreat someone on purpose because he ‘despises’ them they would open themselves for investigation and a court case. That doesn’t mean there are no shitty doctor making mistakes, they would just have to be really dumb to do it in purpose.
It’s probably easier to say what professions are clearly behind the line. Nobody’s going to be harmed if a photographer denies someone a service. And would they have wanted a forced service from a photographer who’s so clearly against their core values anyway? That seems like a recipe for lousy pictures.
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was denied or sought a service here?
It’s a bit stunning how many people just don’t get this. The laws say you can’t discriminate people based on their race, religion or sexuality for a reason. If you accept this behaviour you basically saying that discrimination is fine and legal. This means corporation can stop hiring LGBT people, businesses can stop serving them, private school can reject their kids. Legally it’s the same. This is not about one guy rejecting a customer. He could just say that he’s busy, no one will force him to work. This is about him saying that this is specifically because of their sexuality and and the courts trying to legalize discrimination. And some people claim that this entire case was made up on purpose: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2023/09/24/alliance-defending-freedom-wedding-lawsuit/
The fact that people don’t understand how this works is just stunning.
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Does this in return mean that LGBTQ+ couples win the right to discriminate against christian photographers?
It would also likely mean that LGBTQ+ photographers won the right to discriminate against christians.
I would refuse to work at a Trumper wedding, so I’m glad we have the right to say no to that. That’s the whole point of this ruling.
If this was a photographer of color refusing to work a klan wedding no one would be arguing that they shouldn’t have been allowed to say no.
Well, they can, by just not choosing to hire one.
I think you might actually have just gotten the point here without knowing it. It’s perfectly reasonable to pick a photographer who’s not a bigot, just like how I would choose not to shoot photos for bigots.
You get how this works now?
Yes. For example, by not hiring him
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You absolutely should have that right. What is the issue?
Isn’t religion one of a few “protected classes”? Can’t fire someone for race, sex, religion, disability, or age. I think you can’t deny service for those reasons either. Well not if the SCOTUS considered precedent and made good faith rulings at least.
“Should” is the operative word in my statement. I personally believe that you SHOULD have that right. I have always held the belief that I would much rather people discriminate against me openly so I can determine who I want to give my money to. If a company doesn’t want to do business with me, then I certainly don’t want to do business with them. Instead we have laws that prohibit discrimination, but face discrimination in practice. It’s like having a friend who smiles to your faces, but talks shit about you behind your back. No thanks, I’ll pass.
Don’t you? It’s your business you can do what you want.
It’s your business but if you want to do business in the US, federal and a lot of state laws say you can’t discriminate against customers based on factors such as race, religion, sex or national origin.
So how does this ruling reaffirm or change that?
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i am kind of torn on this.
on the one hand I think it’s important that you can refuse to work with people you don’t like for whatever reason.
On the other hand, this is an absolutely childish and stupid reason to not work with someone.
You can refuse for any reason - except those involving discrimination against a protected class. Sexual orientation is supposed to be a protected class. You can still discriminate, you just have to give another/no reason and make sure it doesn’t look like you’re doing it for a prohibited reason.
If I wanted to say that no people with glasses were allowed to shop in my store, that would be allowed. If I wanted to say that no pregnant women could shop in my store, that wouldn’t be allowed. If it was a pregnant woman wearing glasses, I could claim the first reason, but then, if I was found to be allowing other people with glasses to shop, my reasoning would be challenged and I would have to demonstrate that I wasn’t discriminating because of pregnancy.
At least, this is how discrimination laws are supposed to work.
It turns out that anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak and not fully defined, allowing bullshit like this to seep out of judge’s mouths and through the cracks. The Equal Protections Clause of the 14th Amendment only grants equality under law, so it only really affects governments. The Civil Rights Act extends this out to private employment under Title VII, but not much further.
What the 303 Creative v. Elenis ruling (the Supreme Court ruling that led to the settlement here) does, in theory, is allow any private person the right to discriminate against any protected class (eg pregnancy, disability, and all the others) so long as the person they’re discriminating against isn’t an employee. This is clearly bullshit, and I’m sure if people started discriminating against Christians they’d be up in arms.
Thankfully, this settlement does not in any way strengthen this ruling, it only gives one asshole permission by one state - there is no ruling here, just an out of court settlement, thus it does not extend to anyone else. In particular, the state probably thought that because there was no injured party actually being discriminated against there wasn’t much point wasting time and money litigating.
Obligatory IANAL.
Your comment should be an article. Excellent clarifications.
Thanks. I think my other comment made soon after gave a bit better detail on the laws:
I think the issue lies in the different measures of protected class, and the layers of law between State and Federal. US law is needlessly complicated and full of holes.
The Civil Rights Act provides protections for employees against discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin under Title VII. Title II covers inter-state commerce and protects against discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex.
Beyond this, states are supposed to make their own laws. However, the Supreme Court decision in 303 Creative v. Elenis undermines this, as the court ruled that the 1st Amendment and free speech overrules any discrimination law the state makes. Thus, provided you avoid Title II by only doing business within the state, it would be possible to argue that you can discriminate against any protected classes, so long as that class isn’t protected by other Federal legislation (eg the Americans with Disabilities Act provides extensive coverage for those with disabilities).
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What’s there to be torn on?
You can’t honor people’s rights just when they suit your agenda. What would happen if you refused to work with someone and other people thought it was ‘absolutely childish and stupid’?
It feels…weird to me. Like refusing to work with someone at your job because they like coffee. Or dislike tigers.
Or more accurately, they were born with blue eyes and you just hate people with blue eyes. And you can’t stand them so much that you take your case against blue-eyed folk to the highest court of the land just to ensure you never have to work with them or take them as clients at your IT company. Sometimes it makes me wonder how we ever even got here, lol.
I’m pretty sure the photographer in question got all his court fees paid for by PACs or think tanks.
So you think I should be able to start job interviews by asking people if they’ve ever voted Republican? Because we absolutely employ LGBT people, so I have a legitimate interest in protecting them from bigots.
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Well, turned out it’s perfectly OK to start your interview by stating your allegiance to a christian god, so it’s only fair.
At this point? I think it’s not unreasonable. Given the state of the Republican party right now, you don’t vote for them for their economical policy or whatever they pretended to care about decades ago. They only concern about culture war bullshit, and by voting for them you agree with it, and that includes unwavering hate for LGBT people.
Not liking someone because they smoke isn’t the same as not liking someone for who they are.
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
Who was hiring him?
I disagree with him, and I think he’s bigoted. But I don’t think anyone has the right to his labor and that he should be legally forced to photograph things that he doesn’t want to photograph. And it’s not like photography is a business that anyone can corner the market of in a small town or anything like that, all you need is a camera. It’s the most common side hustle I see people try.
And how do you differentiate between this and say, a shop, or a doctor? Do LGBT people not “have the right to the labour” of those services?
I disagree with that framing entirely. But I’m curious to know how you would differentiate.
One is and artistic and expressive occupation. Stitching up a gay person wouldn’t be perceived as a form of statement. But being required to produce work in the traditional style of a wedding photographer could be perceived as issuing a statement in support of the event.
If you sold signs, you shouldn’t be able to decline someone a blank sign just because they are LGBT. But you shouldn’t be required to design one that carried a pro LGBT (or any other kind) of message.
I see where you are going with that, and I follow. But what about when we get into healthcare that can be perceived as queer-specific?
Say, when a doctor refuses to do proper STD screenings for a gay man, refuses to prescribe PrEP or PEP, or refuses to authorize checks on hormone levels?
All taken from experiences me and my friends have had, by the way.
I wouldn’t consider screenings or prescribing countermeasures to people who suspect exposure to medical threats particularly artistic or expressive. All those seem like pretty normal things for any sexually active adult to ask for regardless of sexuality.
Additionally those should be confidential so I don’t see them as a form of compelled speech.
I think the difference comes down to creative outlets. Just like with the “create a website for same-sex weddings”. I also feel a photographer should be able to deny a Trump themed wedding or cake. But if it’s a general service or product offered to everyone, you shouldn’t be able to deny a person just for being gay or black or anything protected. I don’t know if I’m elaborating my thoughts about it well but do you get where I’m coming from?
A wedding photographer offers their services to everyone having weddings. If that photographer refuses to photograph same-sex weddings, is that not the same as denying service to someone over their sexuality?
The United States has long held that creative work, art basically, is a form of Speech and protected under the 1st Amendment. This means that compelling art is the same compelling speech and boy howdy are there a bunch of laws around that, laws that society really needs to have.
So it’s a collision between rights:
On the one side we have the Photographer and their Constitutional Claims to not be compelled to create art (speak) and their right to not do something that is against their religion.
On the other side we have a LGBTQ person and their Constitutional Claim to not be denied services as a member of a protected class.
We currently draw the line by protecting the right to not be compelled to speak. In practical terms this means that buying a standard per-packaged Good or Service cannot be denied to people in a protected class. If a member of that protected class wants to purchase a Good or Service that would require creative input then the seller can refuse.
It becomes more clear if you create a scenario where someone in a protected class wants something distasteful. Let say that this Nazi here is gay and getting married to this Nazi here. They roll into one of these fine bakeries in New York and demand a custom cake in the shape of Hitler standing on a base that says “Blood and Soil” with little red fondant swastikas between each letter.
They also need a wedding photographer but their Hitler Themed wedding has a 7’ tall statute of the guy standing underneath a banner that says “Arbeit Macht Frei” and they really want a shot of the two of them standing next to that statue in their finest Hugo Boss tuxedo’s while they both kiss Hitler’s cheeks.
So how does Society decide this mess? Do we force the Jewish bakery to make that cake because the buyers are minorities and gay? Do we force the photographer to take those pictures? Would YOU want to be forced to do either of those?
I sure as hell wouldn’t because what they want is deeply and personally offensive. This is why we protect against compelled speech.
I just hope those two guys are happy together regardless.
I wouldn’t do that either.
You make a good point and I thought the same thing after I made my initial comments. Another one I thought about was what if a person truly strongly believed in segregation, even maybe it being a part of their religion. Does that mean it’s ok for them to deny black people? That makes me deeply uncomfortable to put it lightly; I don’t think that is justifiable.
At the same time, there is something very personal about creative pursuits. Graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it. And this is something that is custom made for each customer. If the artist isn’t interested, and even is morally opposed to performing the work, even if they were legally required to do it, is it going to be their best work? Can they be penalized for deliberately doing a terrible job? I don’t know
I think this issue is why we have protected classes and why sexual orientation/preference/gender should be one.
When you say “graphic artists can reject any idea and they don’t have to justify it” the implication is that they can reject it for any reason which is not strictly true.
“I don’t feel like it” is a perfectly valid reason.
“I don’t like Black people” is not.
A photographer can choose not to do a job because they don’t feel like it, but not because it’s for a Black person or a Jewish person.
The issue here that is being overlooked in a lot of the discussion (but definitely is not being overlooked by the Supreme Court) is that LGBTQ people are not a protected class. Every time one of these cases pans out it sets another precedent that will be used to keep it that way.
It’s not the same as being forced to photograph a Trump rally or campaign photos. A far more apt comparison imo is race. Most people would agree that a business (any business) should not be able to exclude someone based on their race.
This potentially opened the floodgates for discrimination. Unless this is specifically only for for “hired” or “contract” If not…. Coming soon to stores in the south near you
“NO F****TS ALLOWED”
“TRA***ES NOT WELCOME”
No. He gets to choose who to work for. He doesn’t get to choose not to work for entire classes of people when those classes are protected.
It’s the same as if he said he didn’t want black clients.
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So I agree with the content of your comment. I don’t agree with all the implications. A cake maker should be able to refuse to make a dick cake, but they shouldn’t be able to refuse to make a cake just because the couple is gay. If they would make an identical cake for a straight couple, they should make the same cake for a gay couple.
Similarly, a photographer should be allowed to refuse to take nudes photos, but they shouldn’t be allowed to take identical photos that they would for a straight couple just because the couple is gay.
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If the photograph isn’t at ease with that, I’d argue they should be allowed to ensure not to be in a situation where they can’t render the proper service
But where does that stop? At what point are racists who are uncomfortable with interracial marriage allowed to deny services to people because of their race
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I pretty much already stated all that. When it’s about performing some act, and where “what you don’t agree with” impacts the work being performed.
…so if we go with the previous example, a photographer should be allowed to deny service to an interracial couple if they’re “not at ease” with seeing them -
“move a little closer”, “look this way”, "kiss lightly ", etc., etc.
Well the hypothetical protection you’re describing would in practice protect and embolden people who hold white supremacist beliefs. I say “embolden” because you know what a racist photographer would do without those protections? They’d either turn them down, or they would take the pictures, take the money, and keep their ugly mouths shut. Because those are better options than fighting a battle they believe they could lose.
However, if they are legally protected by the federal government in communicating to interracial couples they won’t provide service to them because they are an interracial couple, can you imagine the actions a now unrepressed fanatic would take? You think you wouldn’t see “whites only” on some of these people’s websites? And can you begin to imagine the fear and anxiety that would inspire in the people who now have to see those kinds of notices while looking for a wedding photographer? A wedding cake? Who now have to ask every photographer and cake maker if they serve “couples like them” if they don’t have a notice? Can you see the parallels?
Legal action that empowers bigots and disempowers those they hate at scale is all it takes to develop a foundation and vocal support for the return of socially acceptable and legally backed discrimination. And you better believe that a foundation is exactly what the far-right politicians that brought about these “protections” view it as, because plenty have signaled openly that they have no interest in stopping legalized queer discrimination here, and will absolutely use this decision to justify going further in the future, the same strategy they use for all their culture wars.
So bakers should be forced to make a cake that reads "I hate "?
Is there any legal basis in this?
Not really. As far as I’m aware there’s nothing in law that differentiates between selling a product and providing a service. However the whole problem here is that the law isn’t actually that well fleshed out.
The 14th Amendment gives equal protection under law. This basically says the state can’t treat any citizen different for any reason. Thus, a court can’t refuse to hear your case because you’re black, and a state can’t refuse your marriage because you’re gay. This only really applies to governments, however.
The Civil Rights Act has various Titles, most of them still relate to the state (eg voting). There are two exceptions where this goes beyond the public sector, though, Title VII on employment and Title II on inter-state commerce. Title II outlaws discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin - but not sex nor sexual orientation, and it only applies to inter-state commerce. Title VII prohibits private employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, but might not cover sexual orientation (I haven’t found a definition on what “sex” covers, orientation might fall under this but it might not).
There is other legislation covering specific aspects, such as the Americans with Disabilities Act which provides extensive protection to people with disabilities.
Beyond that, it is up to individual states to set their laws. However, they must do so within the bounds of the Constitution, which is what allows free speech challenges like the one in the Supreme Court ruling over 303 Creative v. Elenis, which set a clear precedent allowing private businesses to discriminate regardless of state law.
All in all, anti-discrimination laws in the US are actually very weak.
IANAL, feel free to correct me if you know better.
Dang. It’s so nice getting informative responses instead of memes and lame jokes.
Thank you.
In US law specifically no, the US judicial system is purposefully built to give more power to courts to decide things like that on case by case basis and to get this kind of rules of thumb based on previous rulings, but not bounded by them. That’s why it’s so hard to codify anything into law, compared to other countries.
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We’ve always had bigots. We always will. In the past, bigoted business behavior has resulted in opportunity for those who are willing to serve the clients the bigots won’t. Minorities understand this, and minority-friendly businesses prospered.
I can understand being upset that a business won’t accept you as a customer. What I don’t understand is why anyone would still insist on supporting that offensive business with their patronage. I’d be spreading the word about their practices, asking folks to boycott them.
Show me someone saying “This is fine”, and I’ll show you someone who has the privilege to not fear whether they’re going to be blocked out of society for the crime of…existing. This is only the first step to “All businesses, including businesses required for life, can discriminate against LGBTQ+ individuals”. Y’all are unhinged.
Obligatory:
It’s not a step, they literally are allowed to discriminate, under US law.
First off, the only protection US law gives is towards “sex”, not “sexual orientation”. The right to gay marriage isn’t about sexual orientation, rather the 14th amendment merely states that the law must treat all citizens equally. The state cannot refuse to hear a civil suit filed by a black man, and the state cannot refuse the marriage of gay people. It only applies to the government (as well as those contracted by the government per Title VI of the Civil Rights Act).
Second, US law only considers sex a protected class in matters of employment. Title II of the Civil Rights Act governs inter-state commerce only, and only grants protections against discrimination based on race, color, religion, or national origin. It does not cover sex/gender, and does not cover sexual orientation, and only applies when the business involves a significant number of customers from out of state or products whose supply chains involve other states.
The way it’s supposed to work is that states can set their own laws on the matter. However, states must set their laws within the bounds of the Constitution. What happened with 303 Creative v. Elenis is that the Supreme Court ruled that the 1st Amendment right to free speech supercedes any law the state makes, thus, unless Federal law says discrimination is illegal then it is a-ok in law.
As it is, there is no federal law protecting against discrimination for sexual orientation specifically, and discrimination based on sex is only protected in matters involving employment.
US law is shiiiiiiiite. I wouldn’t hold my breath for a Republican Congress, too busy fingering their own assholes, to actually make some proper legislation.
Should a Jewish photographer be required to work the klan themed wedding of Baron Trump to the reanimated corpse of Eva Braun? Just because they were asked to?
A single proprietor business should be allowed to deny any job that they aren’t comfortable working, just like any employee of a company could refuse to work such a job.
I don’t like bigots either, but requiring a photographer to work at whatever event wants to hire them is absurd. You don’t lose all right to autonomy just because you offer a service, least of all a service that provides nothing that anyone actually needs.
I think it’s a bit silly to apply Popper to an issue about taking wedding photographs. Popper himself published the idea in 1945, in a time where intolerances were a bit more on the serious side.
Generally speaking it’s almost always a bad idea to force somebody who’s diametrically opposed to your core values to work for you. I don’t understand how they would have wanted this to ideally go? That the photographer grinds their teeth while being forced to take photos of them?
wanted to prove the law was unjust before it even affected him
This is a “crime” without a victim. No one was hiring him for this task. If we had a sane court the whole thing would have been rejected due to lack of standing instead we have a higher court system that only recognizes offended observer for the religious right.
No one actually wanted to do business with the photographer here, he sued the state so that he wouldn’t be subject to the law. Now, he can post that he doesn’t do business with gay people on his website. However because it was settled out of court it only applies to him and him alone.
Hey homophobic waiter, can you please serve this gay couple some food? Please don’t spit too much on it.
I think that discrimination, any discrimination, is bad and should over time be eradicated with education. But just trying to make the point here… You can’t let businesses discriminate, but you also can’t force individual persons to go against their beliefs -as retarded as those beliefs might be- and expect good results at the end. Did this couple really expect nice pictures?
In this case, the business IS the individual, and you can punish the business I guess, but this is something that in the practical real world ends with a homophobic waiter staying quiet and instead just spitting all over the food he’s about to serve to you.
I guess I’d rather know someone’s opinions before dealing with them.
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Did you reply to the wrong comment? Because that’s not what the person who commented said.
If you are going to be an advocate / ally you are going to need more tools in your box that “hrr Christians bad lol”. There are a ton of rational positions to take her they don’t make the good guys look like morons.
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Yeah, fair. That’s not the problem.
The problem comes when they think everyone else is required to do business with them.
“Rules for thee and not for me” and all that.
Waiting for the first Christian couple to be denied the photographers services, to lose their shit about it! It happened when that bakerdid it and it will happen here.
That would be appropriate, since a lot of people in the LGBTQ community behave like they were in a fundamental religion.
Would it work is the wedding couple is a MAGA fan?
I am going to let Bob Updegrove of Virginia know what I think of him as a person.
For heels boos are the same thing as an applause
Not the way I do it.
You do you. Everything you say online is stored on some server somewhere though.
