This came up in my health care forum.
Right now, you can legally detain someone medically when they are a danger to themselves or others for up to 72hrs. The details vary by state, but this is how we lock down individuals trying to suicide or someone mentally off the rails making threats of violence.
This variation on that law would also make opposition to Trump qualify.
Civil commitment can follow as with individuals who have profound mental illness and are not safe to be out in the world.
This is the loudest scream that democracy is dead short of hauling people out into the street and shooting them.
It’s important to note the police are currently the people who bring individuals in for the 72hr mental health holds.
Americans are fucked. Political disagreement to be classified as a mental disorder? Y’all skipped the Hungary and Russia steps, and went straight to NK.
I will scream it from the roof tops that he is incompetent and my dislike for him. I’m not scared.
You’re not scared because your great grandmother wasn’t thrown out a 4th floor window by Nazis. You really don’t understand a dictatorship, do you?
My grandmother was a German citizen. My blood runs deep and I fully understand how you put these people in their place.
This process is already able to be abused to swat people, and the conditions are horrible for the people being held. I’ve seen it as a MH worker. It’s not a hospital, it’s a jail. There is no treatment, only observation in cells. It’s deeply traumatizing and corrupt. Coercion to get people to sign into voluntary programs ($) in order to be released, or they extend their hold. The whole thing is a travesty.
Awww, they’re feeling the pressure huh?
Just like in Soviet Union under Stalin.
Not really, abuse of the mental asylums like this mostly happened after Stalin’s death. Under Stalin, you were simply thrown into the Gulag system.
Document not found…
And here I thought it was Roadkill F. Kennedy that was gonna send me to a concentration camp for taking antidepressants. Welp I guess it’s the nuthouse for me instead. At least until being mentally ill at all gets you sent to the “rehabilitation farms.”
Psychiatric hospitals are also allowed to lie to you. You can go in voluntarily, and be upgraded to “involuntary” with no recourse.
Mental health techs will lie - cause problems? Guess what, your notes now say that you are “paranoid” and “hear voices.” You’re “paranoid” because a tech beat the shit out of you two hours ago - you don’t hear voices, but you are “crazy” so obviously lying.
Check what rights institutionalized people have in your state. I can tell you where I live, there are none.
Was a mental health tech at a psych hospital. Ditto this, when it’s the nurse’s word against yours and the Ombudsman is already overworked and overwhelmed, you’re cooked.
I tried to go to bat for my patients so often, but once the nurses and the aides burn out, they stop doing the job because they care and start doing the job because it’s a job. I had nurses who told me to overchart patients so their insurance would pay more and they’d stay longer. Shady, shady shit.
And keep in mind that this is the state of things prior to our current regime that runs on cruelty.
LOL, the stuff of nightmares.
Quite literally in my case.
PTSD from “psychiatric care” is pretty difficult to deal with (and understudied. fascinating how PTSD only garners you empathy and understanding if you’re a combat rep, despite the fact that most with PTSD do have it from sexual abuse and possibly inpatient experiences - suicide rates skyrocket after involuntary commitment, but why do any form of investigation into something that might hurt profits?)
If you’re afraid of wasps, you aren’t expected to go ask a wasp how to deal with it. If, however, you experience severe abuse at the hands of mental health professionals and you live in an area where mental health care = the police, getting any form of help is pretty difficult.
Especially when they consider your gender identity and sexuality as manifestations of mental illness/further evidence that they don’t need to look into the tech beating the shit out of you.
You’re speaking directly to me. I am a veteran with PTSD. It was from sexual assault and the accompanying involuntary mental health lock up after I went to the doctor to seek help with my sleep.
I was told I could not claim the sexual assault because I would have been kicked out for sleeping with someone that was married and for being gay (this was before they repealed don’t ask don’t tell)…… I would have been court martial and thrown out they said.
Lucky for me I’m an infantry marine with a combat tour so my PTSD gets assumed to be combat and I don’t have to explain much to anyone. But fuck, how am I supposed to go and talk this out with doctors that I don’t trust? I don’t trust the system at all. I was let down by low command (squad), middle command(battalion command), and high command (regimental command). I was then failed by the nurse (corpsman), PCP (battalion doctor), psych (some fuckface colonel), his nurse (another corpsman), and the facilities personnel (nurses, doctors, psychiatrists).
And to compound on all this, I was involuntarily locked up when I was 14(??) because my parents let me get so fucked up that I blacked out and they called cops saying they didn’t know what was wrong with me……. What was wrong was that I was 14 and handed booze and pills…… the fuck did they expect?!? Obviously both times I ended up getting released but that doesn’t remove the inhumanity of it all. The treatment as if you are “other” to them. Like a dog or some shit.
So I’ve had trauma from psych wards from adolescence and also my time in the marines.
Sorry for the rant. Just triggered so much inside me with your comment.
I don’t know if you’re seeking care (and I hate unsolicited mental health advice on the internet)- but something that has helped me is seeking out specifically a sex therapist about the abuse and the way it manifests elsewhere. Her philosophy is more holistic/social cultural.
I also have another therapist that comes to my apartment. The power imbalance is less scary - it’s my castle.
I also start any convo with a prospective shrink by letting them know that I strongly am against CBT and do not believe that it works for trauma. A therapist doesn’t need to be anti-CBT, but the way that they react to a self-advocate is really helpful in seeing if they respect their patients autonomy or not.
The dicey thing is that our system is not at all set up for dealing with chronic suicidal ideation. There’s so much fear around mandatory reporting, the idea that someone might talk about not wanting to live, go home and off themselves, and whoops! there’s your license. Having a conversation with a prospective shrink about what their “line” is there is very helpful - that you can make Luigi jokes and not be sectioned.
I have met and hung out with a staggering variety of monsters. so much so I might be doxxing myself if I really described the breadth. If you can think of a kind of monster that exists, I have probably met them. I might even have known one well.
I have never met anyone who can reach quite the degree of sadist or control freak as a psychiatrist. Psychopaths aren’t as willing to lie spontaneously and throw people away. future cult leaders aren’t as quick on the self justification trigger. I genuinely believe sydney gottlieb was one of the less malignant assholes that profession has ever produced.
which is a shame, because the pharmacology of the mind is something I’m deeply interested in. there’s cool fucking science there, and we will never see it done.
I think it’s even worse than that. Some of us actually rely on psychiatry. Some of us for controlled medications no less. I can’t just decide to not partake in the system because I cannot function without psychiatric medications, but can with them. And so I’ve had to learn to play their games and play into what they think my mental illness is like.
And that’s before we get to the abuse. I’ve been gaslit by psychiatrists and I’ve had it easy. I know for certain that I will never voluntarily commit myself after the stories I’ve heard.
I can’t deal with it. my choices are street drugs, or just embracing being fucked up. no amount of nightmares or hallucinations is worth dealing with a psychiatrist. you can do a shit ton more towards fixing your shit without drugs than they tell you, if you figure your shit out. it’s rarely enough, often involving major changes and adaptations, and there’s basically no chance you’ll exist within normative society, but there’s more than nothing out here.
The power dynamic is the scary part. PTSD isn’t just trauma - it’s trauma with powerlessness and an invalidated narrative.
Saying “hey I need help, I’m struggling with not wanting to leave the house or be alive” - and then losing your rights. Being forced into a room which isn’t clean. The threat that they can medicate you if you annoy them to much (asking to speak to an advocate, asking to file a grievance).
It’s strange that suicidal ideation is considered enough to make you “crazy.” I don’t understand why the response to someone cogently explaining the reasons they want to die (and most of those reasons being fairly rational responses) = “this person is crazy and should be a ward of the state for the next couple days.”
They also get to present this as the only option - “oh, you want 988 to let people just die over the phone?” Well, the research indicates that suicide rates spike not just immediately after institutionalization - but the effects continues for YEARS LATER.
The charge nurse joked that even with the 72-hour hold, weekends didn’t count and they would be happy to keep me for five days if I didn’t shut up.
They also didn’t properly discharge me/provide paperwork. I lost my job because of this. I was already reluctant to seek out help (my mother was a serious Munchausen by proxy - she sent me to institutions as a child telling them I was violent/on drugs/etc - I was a straight edge teen that didn’t even look at porn because I was scared of what she would do.)
Instead of help, I got another set of memories to crush me at 4 in the morning. I got mistreated for being trans, which further contributes to the atmosphere of fear I live in. I lost my job, which is already a struggle because I need to save up to get out of here.
I’m sick of people suggesting therapy as the first response to anyone describing mental health struggles. I’ve met so few capable of anything more than providing the CBT worksheets that seem to be all they’re trained to do nowadays.
Psychiatry and psychology as fields ultimately seem more about the enforcement of social norms than about benefiting the patient.
It’s strange that suicidal ideation is considered enough to make you “crazy.
It’s also incredibly fucked up that some forms of suicidal ideation is considered normal religious behavior too. Longing for heaven because the world is a sinful place is considered normal and healthy in my area, but longing for death because the world is fucked up means you need to be locked away.
I’ve got persistent ideation because I was raised with the former, but as soon as I stopped believing in the afterlife, people started getting real weird about it.
Interesting I’ve had the opposite experience. All the psychiatrists I’ve met, worked with, and been treated by have been kind and wonderful. The only bad experience I’ve had has been dealing with a cruel PhD psychologist, who I think just hates men because of something in her past and took it out on the people she had power over.
are you, by any chance, a straight cis white dude with some amount of class privilege, and possibly some professional qualifications? I ask, knowing the answer.
This reads like low-key Scientology propaganda.
Plenty of people who are not scientologists believe psychiatry and psychology are corruption incarnate. Sometimes I wonder whether scientology was invented by psychiatry to discredit those who point out its lack of efficacy, cruelty, and financial exploitation of vulnerable and naive people.
I have trouble telling the part sometimes, to be honest. I guess scientologists tend to be better actors and worse scifi authors than psychiatrists, but how often does that come up when you’re meeting someone?
Only in that it’s critical of the field of psychology as it is on the ground? I’m not a Scientologist, and I don’t think the cans are a substitute for care.
The state I live in was under DOJ investigation for using the police/prisons as default responses to behavioral health care. Even the people I call to report my own experience of abuse or children I advocate for - they are all like, yeah, all of the facilities here are like this.
It’s not that psychology is fundamentally bad (although we need to excise Freud entirely) - it’s that in practice there’s very little accountability and a lot of abuse that is covered up due to differences in power. I was able to call and report the fact that I was physically assaulted - the man I saw drugged in a holding cell will probably never be able to express what happened to him a way that will ever be taken seriously or lead to meaningful action.
CBT is flat out ineffective for many people and conditions. It is a serious problem that the majority of practitioners are only taught CBT and will outright lie if you tell them you don’t want CBT.
Oh shit! Free mental healthcare.
Fuck Trump!
I’d like to talk about my mother when possible.
What makes you think it’d be Healthcare?
What makes you think it would be free?
Other countries will pay for it!
/s
Let’s see here, make this out to comptroller, and the amount is… well let’s just leave that blank for now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_abuse_of_psychiatry
This is literally CCP level stuff.
Donald Ewen Cameron’s operation was running from what is today known as the Allen Memorial Institute (AMI), part of the Royal Victoria Hospital, and not to be confused with the non-governmental organization based in Montreal, AMI-Québec Agir contre la maladie mentale.
Love how Donald Ewen Cameron gets exactly one sentence that doesn’t even describe anything he did, and is listed under the Canada section with zero mention of being funded by the CIA as part of MKULTRA (which also gets zero mention in the article).
For those who don’t know, Donald Ewen Cameron posed as a normal doctor in Canada and took patients who came in with minor symptoms like headaches or anxiety disorders and put them into months-long comas without their consent to run CIA mind control and drug experiments on, including LSD and electroshock treatments at 30-40 times normal levels. The full extent of his abuse will never be known due to the destruction of records (more details on this page), but many people were severely traumatized with long term effects including, “incontinence, amnesia, forgetting how to talk, forgetting their parents, and thinking their interrogators were their parents.” “Victims often suffered from retrograde amnesia for the rest of their lives and had to relearn most skills they had. Many were in a childlike state and even had to be potty-trained.”
After conducting these horrific, abusive “experiments” (torture) on innocent Canadians seeking medical help, with US government’s full knowledge and support, Cameron would go on to become president of several different organizations, including the American Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, and even the World Psychiatric Association.
This is literally USA level stuff.
Holy shit, what? Good god
I know all about MKULTRA, but I’ve never been aware of this or anything else that involved Canada.
Man this country is rotten to the core. The shit that the CIA did with LSD alone constitutes crimes against humanity.
My first thought when reading this is….
We’re mere weeks away from martial law.
My second thoughts was, if this is the distraction- what is the other hand doing?
A fair ask.
Like red flag laws, but for the other side.
Red Flag laws are used to remove guns from Trans, Latino, and Black people in red states too. It’s not the solution to gun violence that people think it is. It was a good idea, but it ends up falling to paradox of the false positive and even being weaponized against minorities more often than not. It violates due process as well.
More comprehensive care for people with severe mental health issues and arresting and jailing domestic violence offenders their first time is more effective. Unfortunately, we just defunded public mental health, so…
I agree.
So, the only possible sane position is to support everything Trump does?
No. You don’t have to agree with everything Trump. This bill won’t pass anyway.
Assuming it passed, that’s what the bill said. Any disagreement with Trump is a clear sign of a mental disorder.
Yes, I’m glad you’re beginning to see reason!
Ok, now I know you are a meconium baby, who didn’t have the resolved quickly enough.
The other side?
Red flag laws were geared more towards conservatives, this TDS bill would be geared more towards liberals.
How are red flag laws geared towards conservatives? Are they more likely to have someone report them as suicidal?
Also how would removing a gun from a suicidal person be comparable to taking a person against their will and more than likely getting them fired from work and thrown in poverty?
I guess I’ll see some of you in the loony bin with me. We should play bingo or something.
They probably wouldn’t allow RISK, too “violent”.
I like Mancala, personally.
If you guys haven’t started rioting by now then I lack any empathy for you with what comes next.
Who wrote this fucked up bill? And isn’t Minnesota a blue state?
Like one of the bluest.
Like one of the bluest.
False. It's almost a swing state.
In fact, if you sort the table here you can see that of the states Harris/Walz won there was only one (New Hampshire) where they got a lower percentage of the vote than in Minnesota.
However with the Democratic–Farmer–Labor Party having a majority (by a single seat) in the Senate, this bill will obviously not pass, and if it did, obviously the governor (Tim Walz) would not sign it.
This is just trolling by some deeply unserious politicians.
Mn literally has the longest blue presidential voting streak in the country. Just because there’s nuance tto that statement (as there is in everything), that doesnt mean the state isnt incredibly blue.
They had a Republican governor from 2003 to 2011.
Clinton got 46.4% there in 2016, only a 1.5% lead over Trump.
Their House of Representatives is currently split 50/50 (with Republican leadership due to this), and the DFL has a one-seat majority in the Senate.
I wouldn’t call it “incredibly blue”, and certainly not “one of the bluest”.
Agree to disagree then.
- Lucero
- ; Drazkowski
- ; Wesenberg
- ; Eichorn
- ; Gruenhagen
but, the bill doesn’t even make sense and uses “psychic” instead of “psychiatric”… so not even proof read….
it’s basically a troll bill, more important things to get upset about (unless you’re in minnesota, then you should petition to remove them)I noticed the “Psychic.” At first I thought that it was alluding to people like me who are lawyers but have a strategic mind and fairly accurately predict outcome with good data and information.
But then I immediately realized they’re just extremely dumb and dangerous. Might also have been trying to say psychotic/psychosis.
If it stays as written, then I would like them try to prove the existence of psychics.
It’s a troll as you say. But having watched the law for a long time and being in the law, it is highly likely that a group that is more competent will get a hold of this idea, draft a real version, and pump that legislation out to every state legislature.
We have that being homosexual is a crime still on the books in most places. We are only 40 years old from homosexuality being considered a mental illness. This sort of thing is absolutely on the table.
I don’t know how to start a riot
This statement sums up modern Western society.
BORTLES!
first: start a huge protest with flyers and stuff.
second: start breaking things.
???
nth: prison for inciting a riot.
(although, worth it)
What’s the bill number? Is there a link to the text for a full read?
It’s a Minnesota bill and the link takes you to the full text.
