More than 10,000 Palestinians have been killed in the month since Hamas’ terrorist attacks inside southern Israel, the group’s health ministry in Gaza says.
But Hamas officials say the mounting death toll, believed to include thousands of children, has not caused the group to regret its actions in southern Israel, which Israeli officials said killed 1,400 people.
In fact, Hamas leaders say that their goal was to trigger this very response and that they’re still hoping for a bigger war. It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
Hamas, these officials say, is more interested in the destruction of Israel than what it sees as the temporary hardships faced by Palestinians under Israeli bombardment.
“What could change the equation was a great act, and without a doubt, it was known that the reaction to this great act would be big,” Khalil al-Hayya, a member of the group’s governing politburo, told The New York Times in an interview.
In fact, Hamas leaders say that their goal was to trigger this very response and that they’re still hoping for a bigger war. It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
“This was our plan all along!” Lol? At this rate there won’t even be a Palestine to pay attention to…
“This was our plan all along!” Lol? At this rate there won’t even be a Palestine to pay attention to…
Try and remember where things were prior to the attack. There was a legitimate movement happening where people were starting to recognize the apartheid state that Israel had set up. The conversation was materially shifting to focus on the abuses of the Israeli government. Things were happening that seemed like the whole thing could come to resolution without Hamas being involved. The terrorist attack was as much about maintaining the status quo of conflict as anything else. Hamas and Netanyahu both had their power waning as a function of the failed strategies both have been employing for decades. The attack reset the clock for both of them. It justifies Israels decades of shitty policies that have objectively compounded the situation and made it much worse, along with justifying Hamas position about this being a war for survival. Both hawk factions benefit from this, no people benefit from this.
Curious to see how their apologists will spin that.
Every dead Palestinian Muslim is a martyr to Hamas, no? Every life just another tool to accomplish their religious-political objective, which afaik is solely the destruction of Israel. Or ask yourself why they intentionally link their paramilitary network to schools, hospitals, private residences and such.
Say whatever you want about Israel and Zionism, Hamas are NOT “the good guys” here and never have been. Their actions are indefensible. No amount of whataboutism changes that…
I’ve yet to see anyone defend Hamas’s actions, even from comments that have been reported by others. What people do say is that Hamas’s actions does not excuse Israel’s military committing the atrocities that they are doing. Sounds like you are making up an antagonistic group that aren’t really seen on Lemmy.
there are literally comments in this thread and every thread like it defending their actions. anyone who refers to both sides being bad is bombarded with accusations of being pro Israel.
yes, there are LOTs of people here defending and justifying hamas actions specifically, and there’s always someone saying “noone is justifying hamas” too
I scrolled for a bit and didn’t see anyone supporting the terror attacks on this post. Could you link to some examples?
The closest I found was someone saying what boiled down “what do you expect will happen when people get desperate”
There is a *big *difference between understanding why people get desperate and radicalised to commit terror attacks, and actually condoning it.
They refuse to admit that Hamas committed a crime, or has a long history of deliberate terrorist behavior. Rather than saying that, they pivot to Israel/”Zionism" as the ultimate root of evil. I have no problem admitting both sides are at fault, and in fact the IDF response is well out of proportion at this point. But, poke a hornet’s nest, what do you expect.
How often do you interact with tankies…?
How often do you interact with tankies…?
Outside of dealing with the odd report on our instance, I don’t. I’m not sure what people get out of seeking communities they dislike/don’t care for.
I’ve muted hexbear and blocked some political leaning “world news” communities, programming.dev also hides political communities unless you specifically subscribe to them so that doesn’t show up for our users in all either.
Granted, I don’t see every report made on our instance, but from all the reports I’ve seen since Hamas’ terror attack, the worst one was someone wanting Israelis to leave the land and for the colonisers that are actively taking more land to repay the people they took the homes from with forced labour. Other than that one, even simple things like “Free Palestine” has been reported as hate speech. So you really can’t tell what a single person mean when they talk about hate speech or “supporting Hamas” without them elaborating on where they draw the line.
Of course there are places where people will defend Hamas’ terror attacks. You can also find people who claims Ukraine is ruled by nazis, that 9/11 was justified, covid is a hoax, Holocaust never happened, etc… The question is if you see those opinions popping up on “normal” communities and supported by upvotes.
There are many people across Lemmy defending Hamas. There’s a few documented at the meanwhileongrad community.
If you go looking for them I’m sure you’ll find degenerates (why are looking for them though?), but they are absolutely not common in the all section from what I’ve seen.
really depends on the instance!
If you hear run-of-the-mill Gazans when interviewed on TV (well, maybe not in the US because the propaganda over there is insane so I suspect there’s no showing of normal Palestinians up close and personal, as just people, on TV) they’re often saying of those run of the mill people who died (so children, family and acquaintances, not “fighters”) as being “martyrs” and of possibly dying, including themselves, as “becoming martyrs”.
So yeah, that’s probably a general coping strategy over there for the situation they’re in, which would mean that the occupying power increasing the indiscriminated killing of Palestinian civilians is bound to push them in even greater numbers towards Hamas’ ultra-radical take on how to resist the Occupier.
Hamas is an Insurrection Movement: whilst the means they used on the 7th are abhorrent, that does not change the fact that their reason to be, structure and purpose are those of an Insurrection Movement in a Territory controlled by an Occupying Power, same as the people fighing with guerrilla warfare tactics the US troops in Iraq and Cohalition troops in Afghanistan.
yeah Hamas bad. always
Hamas spokesperson Taher El-Nounou told the Times that, rather than end with a cease-fire now, his group would prefer for the conflict to expand.
“I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders and that the Arab world will stand with us,” he told the Times.I suspect Hamas’s attack will cost Palestine many lives and more land but will not lead to a greater war. Every other time their Arab neighbors went to war for the Palestinians it did not work out well for them; Iran is likely to continue to put pressure on Israel via Hezbollah rather than blow their load with an all-out attack and lose their regional bargaining chip.
It’s all part of a strategy, they say, to derail talks over Israel normalizing relations with regional powers — namely, Saudi Arabia — and draw the world’s attention to the Palestinian cause.
This may have stalled recognition by Saudi Arabia but things will normalize again once Gaza is pacified. Israel and the US are better international allies to have than Palestine.
Turns out a mass terror attack on a nation rarely benefits the attacker or the nation that was attacked, normally with the attacker coming away worse than their better armed opponent.
It’s basically 9/11 all over again. But on a smaller scale and with a Middle Eastern nation far happier to be brutal on the targeted side.
Saudi is probably more annoyed at Hamas for getting in the way of their plans than they are considering cutting off their deals.
I wouldn’t use 9/11 as an example, considering that Saudi Arabia, whose nationals formed the majority of 9/11 attackers and who heavilly promoted and promotes the radical Sunni Islam sect (Wahabism) that inspired said attackers, was just fine, whilst Iraq which has nothing to do with it was invaded.
At this point it is possible that Iran actually plays a role of pacifier with Hezbollah. If conflict is to expand, Iran might get its weapon and centrifuge factories destroyed. It does not need that. It gets no any advantage out of this and with possibility of US being involved it risks additional sanctions.
lolwat?! they had no chance to do that. what’s going on now is basically directly their fault. wow.
The status quo of actually having people in Gaza? Because at this rate, there won’t be anyone left.
Not true, after Netanyahu and Bennett finish moving all 2 Million of the Palestinians out the place will be filled with Israelites.
When that happens, we owe it to the millions of dead Palestinians to ensure Gaza remains the endless series of explosions it is right now
I don’t think they have much say in the matter tbh. Hamas doesn’t even win by popular votes to begin with, and they probably aren’t very popular at the moment.
Heard this floating around in the webs: Hamas wanted a last standoff sort of fight, which would result in a higher death count vs. what was happening for decades, death of Palestine by smaller conflicts.
Crips/bloods and Independent (RFK Jr.) seem to be pushing for more war at the end of the day, so looks like Iran/Yemen and others will join in on the fight. Biden sent US troops closer to the conflict, so once US deaths are seen conflict on the US side will increase.
Heard somewhere that the people in charge of Israel were also helping fund Hamas so as to increase conflict… -Tangent thought: reminded me of Clinton proping up Trump, so as to have an easier win in 2016
For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
edit: fixed word salad a bit
What is this word salad trying to say?
Troll account at best, absolutely smoothbrain at worst
Translation: War. War never changes
At the end of the day, yes.
This guys has 0 clues. Just read his user name.
Not sure how usernames determine everthing about someone.
Viewpoints will not always align with your prefered way of thinking.
It is good to learn to talk with people that are different from what you think, so as to help when talking with others.
Hope you have a great day!
Not sure how usernames determine everthing about someone.
Bro we’ve spent a b u n c h of time having this discussion. You are very confused. Its kind-of sad.
I don’t see it as sad.
Just social media/forum talks with some peeps.
All is good, have a great day!
The part that is sad is that you don’t seem to understand where you are at with this. Its a bummer, because thats the job misinformation, like Jimmy Dore puts out, its what it is supposed to do. And its obviously working. I believe your intentions are good, but you are misinformed.
Random thoughts on the subject, while trying to connect it to other problems…
Thanks for letting me know, I made an edit.
Dont share them next time.
That is not how the world works.
Have a great day!
What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely? No one has given a shit about Palestine since before ISIS / Syria, by my recollection.
That said it’s also, of course, completely inexcusable to kill and take hostage civilians no matter the underlying justifications they might have.
This is just a shit storm about 80 years in the making. And there just isn’t a solution in sight.
Settlers weren’t in Gaza
The choice was really simple. Not opposing a two state solution would have been a great start. All their actions have been to subvert peace or compromise using violence at every turn.
Now you can twist that however you like, but will you really deny that having an independent internationally-recognized Palestinin state is better than endless war, thousands of civilians dead, etc? Albeit perhaps less than they want or think they deserve? It would be a start.
Face it, their “all or nothing” approach is exactly responsible for the current state of affairs. They don’t deny that, they are proud of it. Read their own words.
Hamas or Israel? Hamas actually announced support for a two state solution back in like 2006, and also in 2017:
The 2017 Hamas charter presented the Palestinian state being based on the 1967 borders. The text says “Hamas considers the establishment of a Palestinian state, sovereign and complete, on the basis of the June 4, 1967, with Jerusalem as its capital and the provision for all the refugees to return to their homeland.” This is in contrast to Hamas’ 1988 charter, which previously called for a Palestinian state on all of Mandatory Palestine. Nevertheless, even in the 2017 charter, Hamas did not recognize Israel.[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution
Israel, on the other hand, has never granted Palestinian statehood on terms they could possibly accept. Look at the Oslo Accords - all kinds of concessions for Palestine, this insane military framework going through the West Bank - but no statehood. Basically every time there’s a “peace process” they pose these decreasingly compelling terms.
One state solution is making more and more sense to me these days. It sounds like a radical solution given the polarization and history, but there’s a lot more opportunity for a workable solution that way that actually allows reparations.
that’s advocating for a single state (theirs) and Israel to cease to exist. how very reasonable of them
The concern is exactly the opposite. Israel has been procedurally annexing Palestinian land for decades - the concern, if anything, is that a one state solution would abrogate the rights of Palestinians, because that’s precisely what Israel has done with annexations repeatedly in the past. It’s in fact a requirement to abolish the religious/ethnic supremacism inherent in the Israeli state, in which political parties are even banned from even opposing a Jewish nationalist identity (the 2018 “nation-state” law), and start from scratch with a constitution that actually guarantees equal rights across ethnic groups, in order to achieve equal rights in the region, barring something like the bottom half of Israel being given up to allow a contiguous, fully independent state between Gaza and the West Bank.
The problem most of you aren’t dealing with is that Israel was founded fairly recently (75 years) on the ethnic cleansing/expulsion of the Palestinian population. These endless repeated claims about “Israel’s right to exist”, “Israel’s right to defense”, “Israel’s right to sovereignty” - many of them aren’t even true under international law in the first place, and they ignore the problem that the land they currently claim was unlawfully obtained, and that the people it was stolen who still live under Israeli rule have been oppressed, starved, murdered, poisoned, etc. for decades, under a dehumanizing system of apartheid. There is no just solution attainable in this conflict without concessions from Israel.
so you are saying the only solution is for Israel to not exist. sounds like you want peace as much as hamas does
Differentiate the state of Israel - a religious and ethnic supremacist state from its beginning, by definition - and the inhabitants of the state. Getting tired of that little rhetorical trick where disagreeing with a state actively committing a genocide is supposed to make you sound “antisemitic”.
Even if one believes that violence was the only option that the Palestinians had left, how can anyone justify their indiscriminate targeting of civilians instead of going after military and political targets? (I don’t mean you btw, I mean in general.)
Nobody ever won a revolution by killing their oppressor’s grandma and taking children hostage, so it’s clear that Hamas are less freedom fighters and moreso simple terrorists.
I agree
I don’t think it takes a military tactician to figure out that going after a concert was one of the dumbest moves Hamas could’ve made. They could have gone after any number of Israeli Military or government targets and still had understanding and maybe even support from some Western powers. By going after a bunch of innocent civilians, they made it so they will have far fewer allies, and made it so countries like the US can easily justify sending weapons to Israel.
What choice did they realistically have?
Victim blaming as it is. The choice was not to murder people.
What choice did they realistically have? Be strangled out slowly by Israel while watching settlers pushing borders slowly but surely?
there just isn’t a solution in sight.There are non-violent solutions. They could come to terms with the fact they lost this conflict a long time ago, pacify themselves, and sue for a viable peace; that’s the best path out of this long conflict I can see. Constant attacks against an enemy they cannot defeat is what led to their current miserable situation.
So your solution is for the palestinians to just give up? Constant guerrilla attacks are what drove the US out of afghanistan and iraq and vietnam. So how is that not going to work for Hamas? Hamas has a network of tunnels below Gaza so that entire region will become a kill zone and Israel won’t be able to hold it. History doesn’t repeat itself but it sure does rhyme.
There was no Gaza occupation. The conflict happens because Hamas goal is to drive Jews to the sea, to completely destroy Israel. Which it shows again and again that it is willing to do with maximum cruelty.
So your solution is for the palestinians to just give up?
My solution is for Palestinians to surrender and try to achieve their goals diplomatically rather than through violence, that is not the same as giving up on achieving their goals. It’s possible for them to negotiate for right of return, freedom of travel, national recognition, removal of the blockade, autonomy, peace, safety, freedom, economic prosperity, etc., Although it will be a bitter pill for the uncompromising to swallow, the only thing I think they will have to give up on is the annexed lands. Those were lost to them after they declared war multiple times and were defeated, they are unlikely to get them back. Further violence will not change this and would likely leave them with even less.
Constant guerrilla attacks are what drove the US out of afghanistan and iraq and vietnam.
The US sent military into these places for political ends. When these engagements became expensive and unpopular, the politics shifted and the US withdrew. Israel has no where to withdraw to and their goals are not political, they are existential. Giving up for Israel means being genocided and driven into the sea. Israeli political distaste for this ongoing conflict will not end it.
Hamas has a network of tunnels below Gaza so that entire region will become a kill zone and Israel won’t be able to hold it.
That’s quite an imagination. At best they will take out some IDF soldiers but still lose this vastly asymmetrical conflict. It seems to me that Israel is just bombing the tunnels and causing them to collapse, because building them under civilians using them as human shields wasn’t the deterrent Hamas thought it was. Furthermore, I expect Israel to annex more lands if that’s what it takes to keep themselves safe.
Palestinians didn’t have a choice on who “leads” them either. Hamas hasn’t held a vote for 20 years.
Looks like the Israelis have infiltrated Lemmy.
Ahh well, it was nice while we had it!
