Can someone explain to me why Americans seem so hostile towards Biden over Gaza all of a sudden?
US support for Israel goes back decades. America has been in bed with all sorts of dictators commiting heinous crimes and still is. Not to forget the illegal invasion of Iraq with hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties or the long list of US war crimes revealed by WikiLeaks and largely indiscriminate drone strikes across the globe. Most of these seemed to elicit much harsher condemnation overseas while the US public appeared generally uninterested. So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn’t even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?
- Younger generations are less pro Israel.
- There’s a segment of liberals that view any victimized or oppressed group as morally superior regardless of context.
- Michigan specifically has a very high population of Muslim/middle eastern descent.
- It’s not that sudden, there’s been growing criticism and calling Israel an apartheid state for years. The recent escalation in hostilities just made it more newsworthy.
I would also add that social media showing real-time atrocities happening has also played a role.
OK but republicans demanded help to Israel to help Ukraine, until they changed it up.
So it seems that although Biden may be bad, the only alternative is worse.If you’re being punched in the gut, it’s not reassuring that the other option is going to use a bat instead.
But why clear the way for the worse guy to get to you?
Progressives in a nutshell. They will be upset with the status quo no matter what.
Even if Bernie was nominated and elected, progressives would have turned on him within a year, because he wouldn’t have been able to get policy passed without major concessions, which would then alienate the progressive base for not being perfect.
So you support genocide, but you’re mad that progressives don’t?
Really? You believe that’s a good talking point?
Wow.
So why does this conflict in Palestine in which the US isn’t even an active party suddenly evoke such an emotional response?
Because the US is by all means an active party. The US is selling Israel weapons (including weapons Biden has been bypassing Congress to sell), defending them on the international stage and literally sent them aircraft carriers to prevent anyone in the region from taking action. People have been found guilty in the Numenberg trials for less and people aren’t liking the man who’s supposed to represent them doing these things.
Keeping others in the region from “taking action” is a good thing. The top priority in all of this for the US has been keeping it from escalating to a region wide conflict.
It also makes sense for America to not cut Israel off completely. If we did that, Netanyaho would turn to Russia who would love to have Israel in their orbit. Any leverage we have with Israel is dependent on aid and support.
Most of the big ticket weapons we sell them are guidance systems for precision guided bombs. They have plenty of dumb bombs, and would just use more of those, killing even more civilians.
Do I think the Biden administration is handling the situation well? No, I think we could be putting on a lot more pressure before risking Russia’s involvement with Israel. I just don’t think the situation is as simple as many people make it out to be.
Keeping others in the region from “taking action” is a good thing. The top priority in all of this for the US has been keeping it from escalating to a region wide conflict.
And who cares about the US’s top priority? The top priority for everyone should be to stop Israel’s genocide, not keep a facade of “peace” (read: US supremacy) in the region.
Who cares about a possible WW3? What do you think happens if Iran gets involved? Suddenly Gaza is a tiny sliver of a much bigger tragedy. Yeah, that’s a real scenario - even a likely one without the US presence.
If stopping Israel in Gaza should be everyone’s top priority, that implies that a US invasion of Israel is on the table. Are you down for that, or are there maybe some other things that are priorities?
The US has leverage to pressure Israel to modify their response. I believe we are tragically underutilizing that leverage. I don’t believe it would make that much of a difference though. I also believe that there are even more serious consequences possible if US / Israeli relations fall apart.
It’s possible for someone to care just as much about the people of Gaza as you do, but disagree about what courses of action are available.
Who cares about a possible WW3? What do you think happens if Iran gets involved?
It’s only WWIII because Israel is capable of dragging the US into it. Otherwise it’s just a regional war, and honestly if that’s what it takes to get one of the largest factors in regional instability in the middle East to behave themselves it’s worth it.
If stopping Israel in Gaza should be everyone’s top priority, that implies that a US invasion of Israel is on the table. Are you down for that, or are there maybe some other things that are priorities?
I mean a threat of invasion would work wonders so I wouldn’t object to it (would ironically be one of the most peaceful ways to end this whole mess). But we don’t even need to go there.
I could respond, but I think your comment is pretty much self defeating. “War would be so worth it if it proved Israel sucks.”
No? War would be worth it if it got us out of Israel committing crimes against humanity every other day. At some point peace becomes not worth it and we’ve passed that point a long time ago.
Despite these red flags I think people will just vote for him as a counter vote to Trump. America would rather have a President asleep at his desk than one who wants to burn the house down.
The choice is pretty easy:
Aid and support to Israel
Or
Aid and support to Israel, and give Ukraine to Russia, and give Taiwan to China, and implement fascism at home
Aid and support to Israel
Interesting way to describe committing Genocide. Are you a fan of it perhaps?
Unfortunately many of my peers are saying they’re going to abstain from the general or vote third party. I’m worried people would rather end democracy than hold their nose and vote for Biden.
Good. Get more worried. Biden will lose if he continues this Genocide.
Last election he barely won while everyone was dunking on Trump. He will never win while the left is actively fighting against Biden instead of Trump.
If Democracy is Genocide or Genocide it’s already dead
THIS is how you protest vote. Bravo Michigan Democrats. I hope they still vote for him in the general, but I’m still glad they’re making the DNC sweat.
They will 100% drop Biden if the Genocide doesn’t stop.
Are people expecting a better response to this situation from Trump? I don’t see how people can expect him to be the better choice for most topics. Abstaining a vote for Biden in November is basically the same as voting for Trump
They refuse to be blackmailed into endorsing Genocide.
They expect Biden to stop supporting Genocide when tell him they are not going to vote for Genocide.
Don’t be surprised if Biden loses when he keeps up the Genocide.
I reregistered as independent after voting for Obama twice, Hillary, and then Biden.
Far left and far right are absolute lunatics, and the left will demonize you for trying to be centrist. So voting for Trump or uncommitted we go.
Trump calls someone a RINO like every 15 minutes, and he’s far right. What are you even talking about? You should probably go with uncommitted if you’re a single issue voter on whether people called you names for being a centrist.
Some replies have been nice, and then there are some like yours. Did you not read the part where the left demonizes more often for having nuanced political viewpoints?
I noticed that you define 99% of people as the left. Left of whom? Hitler?
Who should Biden worry about more? Getting the left wing of his party to nominate him, or getting the general electorate to the polls in November? It’s a no brainer calculation.
I mean, the Democrats have been screwing the actually Left for decades now so…
If y’all actually voted, Democrats would care about you more. The Left is fickle and the DNC knows it.
The left actually demands politicians earn their vote. Politics isn’t supposed to be a team sport in the US. The entire reason we have elections so often is to make sure the voters approve of their representatives. That means voting out of team loyalty is a subversion of the system. And the charge of being fickle and lazy is undemocratic propaganda.
Democracy is about compromise. By refusing to compromise you’re ceding power to the worst option.
Compromise requires both sides. And supplying a genocide isn’t compromise.
“Not genocide” is not an option.
It is. Biden can stop providing arms to Israel.
The issue is the left is simply not large enough to win a primary. The reason Bernie wasn’t nominated is simple: not enough votes.
Our system is one of coalition building. You either join the least bad coalition for your interests or you have no influence at all.
the left is simply not large enough to win a primary
Quite a bit of what left-leaning voters advocate for is initially very popular. Medicare-for-All has a broad base of support. Rent control is very popular. Increasing Social Security payouts is an untapped political goldmine. The anti-war movement remains a large and largely neglected constituency.
What left-leaning candidates traditionally lack isn’t popularity, but money. What made Sanders such a powerful primary opponent in 2016 and 2020 was his prodigious fundraising abilities. He wasn’t wildly out of line with Mike Gravel or Ralph Nader on the issues, but he commanded 100x their war chests thanks to the outpouring of social media coordinated campaign funding.
Compared to guys like Steve Forbes or Ron Paul or Michael Bloomberg - who also brought enormous volumes of cash to the table - Sanders was able to offer a platform constituents in his own party were quick and eager to rally around.
Our system is one of coalition building.
A coalition requires seats at the table. Which leftists are getting a seat at the Biden table? Not Rashida Talib. Not Cori Bush. Not even Elizabeth fucking Warren.
Coalitions imply equity. What Democrats are demanding isn’t a coalition, its a coronation. Biden wants his voters to bend the knee. (Trump, too). And the folks who buck his commandments aren’t enticed back into the fold with concessions. They’re treated as pariahs and scapegoats and fifth columnists, to explain his plummeting poll numbers.
If y’all actually voted
Didn’t Bernie Sanders win the California primary in 2020? Seems like he’d need a lot of leftist voters to pull that off.
The Left is fickle
Once bitten, twice shy
Meanwhile, on the Right: “once bitten, BITE HARDER”. So they win elections while you run away.
So they win elections
There’s a couple of levels to this. On one level, I think conservatives do - in fact - deliver some promises. If you like twelve lane highways and ranch style suburban homes and ground beef that’s cheaper by the pound than broccoli? Good news. When Republicans take office, you can consistently bank on getting a couple hundred dollars worth of tax cuts, as part of their multi-billion dollar tax cut package. If you’re in a religious organization the party favors, you can expect all sorts of kickbacks via Faith Based Initiatives and
ParochialCharter School Vouchers. If you’re a bigot, your governor will inflict all sorts of misery on minorities and the LGBT community. Police will parade through the streets in giant military convoys, showing off all their latest gear paid for with inflated budgets.On another level, I think they get a certain amount of psychic agony inflicted on them while Democrats are in office. Right-wing news functionally terrorizes their own viewers until their guys win, and this creates a kind of pavlovian response. If you don’t want to see wave after wave of disturbing images on the TV, elect Republicans.
I think Democrats are mastering the latter, while neglecting the former. And that’s why you’ve got folks on Lemmy shitting themselves in horror over a future Trump administration, without really having anything tangible to look forward to under a second Biden term.
Democrats deliver plenty but messaging is awful. Biden has canceled $138 billion in student loan debt. Billion. That’s with him using whatever executive resources he can after Supreme Court obstruction. Where’s the news articles on that? You see people on this very site saying he promised to forgive student loans and then abandoned that promise (while gleefully laughing and twirling his moustache, because he just loves being evil).
Democrats deliver a lot more than Republicans. Republicans scuttled their own border security deal because they didn’t want to give Dems a win.
Biden has canceled $138 billion in student loan debt.
Biden is administering a policy going back to the Reagan Era of 20-year sunsets on student loan debts. The new debts he’s cancelled are in the billions, not the hundreds-of-billions. And this, in a pool of over $1.6T. I know a few people carrying student debts. None of them are applauding Biden right now. None of them are seeing their debts cancelled.
Democrats deliver a lot more than Republicans.
Democrats will tell you they delivered $800B in Medicare spending in 2023, when they just signed bills to cut physician pay by 2%/year. They publish walls of tiny-text claiming credit for everything from the Civil Rights Act to the latest private uptick in new clean energy infrastructure and get angry when you notice how the former has been gutted and the latter has nothing to do with their latest round of legislative/executive policies.
Trump put his fucking name on the stimulus checks he sent out in 2020.
Biden put his name on sunsets to the Child Tax Credit three years later, with some campaign promises to renew them (if Dems can retake the House AND the Senate AND Joe Manchin/Kristen Sinema don’t block anything) maybe some time in 2025.
That’s bullshit. Leftists vote, the problem is that liberals aren’t leftists and only care about serving Capital.
So there’s more liberals than leftists. That’s democracy.
Your point is wrong, though. Leftists voting for dems will only encourage more liberal policy, not leftist policy. You’re advocating for leftists voting third party and spoiling their vote.
I’m advocating for leftists voting for the most left Dem they can get in any given race. Not for splitting the vote.
Liberal is better than fascist, correct?
The most “left” dem is right wing and wants to implement right wing solutions. The dems are not left.
Who should Biden worry about more?
I think those 726k Trump voters are still winnable if Biden can just move a liiiiittle bit farther to the right.
Over 80% of Michigan Democratic primary voters just registered their support for Biden and his policies while 20% registered their disapproval. About two thirds of those 20% are now demanding that their concerns be made paramount.
About 100,000 people, representing less than 2% of Michigan voters from the 2020 election, are now demanding that they be allowed to wag the dog and decide national policy based on a crushing election defeat.
A couple figures to aid the discussion. Hot off the presses from todays polling:
Biden versus Trump (up to date as of today):
Biden versus Trump and Clinton versus Trump (X axis is days out from the election):
For edification, Clinton versus Trump 2016 (keep in mind that Trump and Clintons polling numbers in the early parts of this figure represent being in contested primaries):
Another version comparing 2016 to 2024 (but more focused on the period of time before the election):
You do realize Trump has lost at least 35% in every single primary, right? The guy has no chance in hell to beat Biden.
I’m not sure what you mean by having ‘lost’ 35%?
Hes won every primary so far.
I don’t find these kinds of comparisons and “latest data points” to be particularly helpful in these kinds of discussions. Voter sentiment is fickle, and how you quantify the “Uncommitted” movement will affect how the data is presented.
We don’t know how the Uncommitted will actually vote in November, though we can be certain at least some will not vote for Biden if nothing changes. It’s a political game of chicken, and it’s Biden’s move.
We don’t know how the Uncommitted will actually vote in November, though we can be certain at least some will not vote for Biden if nothing changes. It’s a political game of chicken, and it’s Biden’s move.
Clinton lost Michigan by 0.2% and it cost her the election. Her campaign opted to not focus on the rust belt and delivered us Trump in the first place.
Biden is losing this election, and I think if a Trump presidency concerns you, its especially worth considering.
Biden can’t afford to lose any voters in Michigan. His policies are working against his ability to gather support in the 2024 election. We can’t wait until after November to have this conversation. It needs to happen now.
Again, if Trump can’t win more than 65% of his own base as a former president, I’m not that worried. The dude has never won the popular it’s and sure as hell won’t this time. He’s definitely lost support. I will place money that Biden will win an even larger popular and electoral vote victory this time.
I would love to have your confidence bro. I really would. I just look at the polling, I look at the messaging, I look at the fervency of the bases, and I don’t have it.
Trumps voters are excited as all hell to vote for him. He’s got evangelicals perhaps literally worshiping him.
I just dont see what you are seeing…
I’ll bet you here and now Biden wins. Save this post.
Saved. Love to gamble.
I’ll give you 1:1 on Biden winning. $20 enough to make it fun?
Also, I’d like to ask for 20:1 on Biden not being the candidate. If you want those odds, I’d also like to bet $20. (you’d be the house, so if I win, thats a $400 payout on you).
We can save this post and then venmo or paypal, whatever is preferred.
Also good with just the first bets or will hear counter odds on Biden not being the candidate.
100% Biden is the candidate. 100% Biden beats Trump.
Biden won Michigan by 154,188. All 100,000 uncommitted could stay home and it wouldn’t change the results. It would just be way tighter than necessary.
That’s 100k from the primary, or 13% of voters. Now convert those into general election numbers.
Are you forgetting Trump lost 35% in Michigan??!! He got 65% and you’re worried about 13% uncommitted? Trump lost 3x that number in the primary. My bet’s on Joe.
Republicans are more zealously loyal than Democrats. They’ll vote for Trump in the general election because as horrible Biden is he doesn’t advocate for hunting the homeless for sport.
Edit: Also in the Republican primary did Trump run uncontested? If not then the comparison in the first place has no basis in reality.
So do you think Biden can stick with his current approach to Gaza and Israel and win the general election?
The point is nobody can know that with any certainty. All these preliminary graphs are helpful to campaign strategists, but do you know the number of Uncommitted voters who will ultimately hold their nose and vote for Biden anyway? Or who will change their mind completely? I certainly don’t.
Sending a message in the primary ≠ doing the strategic thing in the general.
The point is nobody can know that with any certainty.
Well we still have to make decisions and decide strategy in the face of uncertainty. Its a yes or no question that I asked, and you can answer it with a yes or a no.
Do you think Biden can stick with his current approach to Gaza and Israel and win the general election?
There’s a third answer: I don’t know. That’s my answer.
If your plan is strategy, it doesn’t matter what my opinion is. Assume the worst outcome and work as if you can change it.
