I voted for Biden in 2020. This was despite the fact that he is one of the main architects of modern American slavery through his crime bill which made the US the nation with the highest proportion of its own citizens imprisoned by far, who are quite literally slaves according to our constitution. This was despite him participating in the lies which caused us to murder hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis in our pursuit of blowing up Halliburton’s stock value and taking control of large parts of the oil trade. This was despite his support of the neoliberal consensus which has lead to the deterioration of the economic, social, and physical health of the average American while the wealthiest’s share of the economy continues to grow meaninglessly. In fact, it was relatively easy for me to vote for Biden because the person he was running against was Trump who demonstrated worse tendencies on all of the above (while actually softening some prison laws, still fostered the increased social acceptability of acting according to blatant racism so I can’t even give him credit here) and more. According to my utilitarian principles, the evil choice I made was morally superior to the evil choice I did not make. Recent events have me re-considering this motivation.
To be clear, my opinion of Trump has not changed. Under Trump, I am sure I will be more likely to lose my loved ones or even my own life, although I am personally less at risk than his main targets. I am also sure that his influence would at least maintain if not increase the atrocities committed by the Likud-lead Isreali government with whom he has a strong relationship. Christian Nationalism is extraordinarily dangerous and if some of their desires are pushed through there’s really no telling the extent of future horrors we may have to deal with. If Project 2025 has a certain degree of success we may consider any pretense of democracy to be nullified. If I were only considering the immediate consequences of my decision, I would still support Genocide Joe.
I phrased that last sentence like that intentionally and it is the inspiration for this essay. The lesser of two evils in this case is now facilitating a genocide and I think that’s significant. In 2020 I didn’t think I had a red line which would cause me to allow a greater evil, and within the last few months I’m coming to find that I do have a red line I have to consider in and of itself and that line is genocide.
This is what I find particularly frustrating when I try to engage this topic in good faith, even among Biden supporters who are lucid about recognizing what is clearly happening before their eyes with their implicit support. Yes, they tell me, there is a lot they don’t like about Biden but he is the better choice. There is some equivalence implied here. Biden is guilty of a lot of things like union busting, failure to support a public option despite promises, the continuation of many unfair border policies, and oh yeah genocide too. I really want to emphasize that we are talking about the categorization and systematic elimination of a group of people from their homes which could not be happening as it is now happening without the economic and political support of the Biden administration. This is now among the issues we are telling Democrats we are ok with or not ok with via the use of the only political currency left to us being our votes.
“Vote Blue No Matter Who” is a phrase that made me sick the first time I heard it and I have only grown to detest it more, especially since I acted according to it it through my actions in 2020. Recently I realized that this is less of a call to action and more of a threat. More explicitly, this phrase can be understood as “Vote for our candidate or the Republicans will fuck you up.” We better pay up or they can’t be responsible for what happens to us. Like other organizations who make threats like this, by paying up we are supporting them in what they do even if it’s under duress. As long as their heavy, the Republican party, is out there fucking people up the Democrats have license do anything as long as it’s not as bad. The DNC made a hard right-wing shift with Clinton and have been moving right since then, just not as far as the Republicans have. This is where damage control has gotten us. Democrats have pushed through so many boundaries and now we’re at genocide. Now the promise is, “You better support our genocide, or the Republicans will make it worse and fuck you up too.”
What is going to happen if we tell the Democrats that even though they are facilitating a genocide, we’re still going to pay up? What is the message the DNC will read from that? What precedent is going to be set? Are we going to be safer now that genocide will be seen as something we can compromise on? Do we really believe that Trump is the worst threat they can make, or that the lesser of two evils couldn’t eventually be worse than Trump? Do we really think by making this compromise here, on top of all the compromises we’ve made over the last few decades, that after this time everything will suddenly change and we can start talking about making average peoples’ lives better for once?
I can’t responsibly ask these questions without recognizing that the threat is very real. I am not an accelerationist and I do not desire the further deterioration of our society in hopes of a positive outcome through violent revolution. I do not want to have to risk imprisonment and death to resist government persecution. I recognize that a breakdown of democracy and subsequent shift to political violence would only advantage those most equipped for and skilled in the use of violence, whose society of nails would be governed by hammers.
It seems to me that failing to support the Democrats this cycle puts us at greater immediate risk of the above, and that is shocking enough to bring most reasonable people under control. The thing is though, I think that by leaving genocide on the table for anyone across the Overton window of elected officials to consider as a socially acceptable tool is a far greater risk in the long term.
I think that by making genocide just another issue of managing how much we can tolerate among the two sides, making it something that is tolerable under some circumstances, or especially encouraging the thinking that the charge of genocide is conditional on the political expediency of it victims, we are ultimately normalizing the general idea that genocide is an acceptable tool for elected officials across our “political spectrum” of right wing and big tent(right wing, centrist, some left wing) to support or even employ in the worst case as long as they call it something else regardless of international law. If this is ok, what is the next boundary the Democrats will push? I want to stop digging the hole we’re in now, suffer the consequences, and deal with Democrats who at least understand they will not get elected if they facilitate genocide. Honestly I’d like one day to not have to make the least evil choice and have the opportunity to support something after the DNC primary, and it doesn’t seem like damage control is leading us in that direction at all but away from it.
In practical immediate terms, Trump is hated outside of his base and has demonstrated that his endorsement is poison to politicians who are not himself more often than not. He is dangerous, but inspires so much more opposition to himself and his ideas than any other candidate I can think of. I even think that Trump’s genocide is going to be received very differently than Biden’s genocide since Trump will be far less tactful and far more honest about his motivations. The worst case scenario is possible under Trump and I don’t think it’s ok to dismiss that, but it is by no means a guarantee that Trump is the one to lead average Americans into fascism. It is a fucking frightening risk allowing a greater evil through inaction, but I think it’s the actual least bad option this time.
I’m open to being challenged on or discuss anything I’ve said here in good faith. I’m also open to rage-induced teardowns of the ideas I’ve proposed here as long as those teardowns are against my ideas and not against me as a person or others who are sympathetic to these ideas. I understand that this is an extremely charged topic and would like to encourage honest conversation as long as it doesn’t bleed into abuse which won’t help anyone.
Edit: Whew, that was some important discussion. I hope it was clear that my intention was to clarify my thinking and explore different perspectives on my argument rather than me judging others for coming to different conclusions or trying to convince everyone I am sure I am absolutely correct. Importantly, I realized this entire argument is secondary. What is important now is direct action. Depending on the degree of success we have with disrupting this sick order, this whole conversation could become moot and that is my strongest desire. See y’all on the street.
You’re absolutely right though. If trump wins another term it will mean that democracy has completely died and the country that was America is over for good. My family is already moving out of the country, just in case, because it’s too steep a price to pay and it’s too horrifying to think that there are many horrifically mentally ill people still out in public who support trump, people I consider more dangerous than any child predator.
Given the situation I’d still vote for Biden. I’d vote for Jeff Dahmer before I’d ever vote for a complete monster like trump.
in my mind voting in our current system is just pretty straightforward utilitarian calculus (and can’t be anything else): you should vote for the option which will do the least harm and has the highest probability of winning. even if you, say, accept that Biden and Trump are equal on I/P, that just means you should look to other issues on which they are distinct–and they are distinct on basically every other issue in a way that clearly suggests Biden to be the best choice you can make here.
take just the Autocracy Tracker, which makes it unambiguous that Trump, if he wins, is planning a sweeping authoritarian wave of deportations, purges, restrictions of civil rights, and repression of minority groups and ideological groups he disagrees with. much of this is, in a sense, already happening here and already a form of genocide against some groups (trans people most prominently–it is now de facto illegal to be trans and legal to bring harm to trans people in large portions of the US). a Trump win will probably ensure there is no safe place for such groups in this country anymore.
on a moral level: i am just not sympathetic to the idea that voting for Biden constitutes blood on your hands in a meaningful way. i think if you accept this line of argumentation, you would ultimately have to bite the bullet that this could also be said of paying taxes[1]–and i certainly don’t begrudge people for paying their taxes even as this lines the pocket of the war machine, so then why should judge them for voting? in general: by virtue of existing within a state, you will always be complicit to some degree in the crimes of that state, regardless of what you do to extricate yourself from supporting them. so i just don’t think that abstention from voting or voting for a more morally defensible alternative actually cleans your hands of the blood being perceived here.
separately, and more pragmatically: there is no compelling third party with anywhere near a possibility of winning or even scoring a “symbolic victory.” a vote for a leftist third party right now is, in a real sense, a vote wasted–because these parties are incompetent, fractured, and full of people who are not serious candidates. even with the Green Party (by far the most electorally advanced of them) nobody has ever trembled at their influence and in practice they mostly seem to exist to waste a lot of the money given to them on quixotic presidential candidates. imo: any actual movement challenging the power–your DSAs, for example–is going to be built from the ground up and not imposed through the presidency, and is only going to use electoralism as one of its several political arms.
arguably, it’s even more true of paying taxes than of voting: votes may make no difference in whether something happens or not, but taxes actively make them possible ↩︎
: i am just not sympathetic to the idea that voting for Biden constitutes blood on your hands in a meaningful way. i think if you accept this line of argumentation, you would ultimately have to bite the bullet that this could also be said of paying taxes[1]–and i certainly don’t begrudge people for paying their taxes even as this lines the pocket of the war machine, so then why should judge them for voting?
This is such an important perspective that often seems ignored in these discussions. There is such a wide nuance to being an American and our participation, be it taxes or voting. It’s always seemed clear to me that at bare minimum voting for the lesser evil is the first step down the path of doing the right thing as a citizen. However I also would say that I do somewhat feel this to Trump voters, but I would say that’s more about the intent. I would hazard the assumption that if you’re voting for Trump again it’s likely because you have been pushed to have hate in your heart, not because his foreign policy is just so stellar. Whereas if you’re voting for Biden the intent is likely to not have the other guy.
OP’s post is a very good conversation of exactly this. “I won’t support a genocide, so I won’t vote!” That’s awesome, but by not participating you are inherently accepting to the default winner - your bare minimum participation of voting could have had an affect which you abstained from. In a hypothetical landslide of 1 vote for Trump, suddenly voting has a lot of power. By the way, some of our votes in the last 8 years have been down to barely triple digit breaks - legitimately 1 small town voting could have swayed the results in that towns favor. Voting matters quite a bit.
Given our current circumstances, in regards to deciding a vote for the lesser evil, I personally see a former president who placed as many restrictions as possible on specific citizens while relieving as many restrictions as possible on (mostly specific) corporations, and who had been all too happy to engage with the wrong sorts of International Relations, belligerently ignoring allies and goading more dangerous countries. I also see a current President who is historically known for not making the best decisions for the people, while also having a lot of policy that specifically is (or at least tries to… or at bare minimum says he’ll try to even if he won’t which should go without saying for sooo many Presidents).
Which by the way, yes, I would rather have a President who says he is for ____ rights but maybe doesn’t always have policies that fully align with that. As opposed to a president who says he is actively against those same rights, and actively promotes harm to certain demographics… Damn right. Send yourself back in time 10-15 years, try to remember the general public perception from 2008 to 2014. We were calmer citizens because we had a rational leader who wasn’t spewing hate speech at every turn. Of course other factors had an effect, media exacerbation and whatever else, but that wouldn’t have been the case had we had literally any other President.
And that’s the whole thing of it - if you don’t vote, the voter has no power (giving it to the rest of the voters). If you do vote, the voter has very little power. At. Bare. Minimum. If you are a voter who canvases in your area, you have made a much larger difference - you have gone above and beyond the bare minimum. And who knows, maybe you just happened to live in the town that changed your swing states results. The thing is, the bare minimum should be much more than just voting. Just voting is how we got here in the first place. Just voting isn’t ever going to change anything, because just voting alone doesn’t rally people together under a united ideal.
All this to say - I personally do not think that it is wrong to take what power you have to vote for “fascism in 50 years” as some have recently started to say about Democrats. It’s not wrong to vote this way when the alternative is fascism in 4 years. Futhermore, I think it’s also admitting that doing the absolute bare minimum just isn’t entirely effective.
As U.S. citizens, voting is what we have to do at the bare minimum. We should all be out actively campaigning in our local elections specifically to encourage, inform, and expand our collective understanding of politics. This works two-fold, because as we become more engaged @[email protected] we become much more observant. As you say, if Dems are on a path to evil, isn’t the solution for all of us to get as possibly involved as we can? At a certain point, we would be the Dems playing the game.
I say this as someone who has written to my California representatives about many things and having gotten response letters basically calling me an idiot for me expressing my wishes for him to reconsider his position, and why the evil things he’s supporting are actually a good thing. It’s obviously not easy, we’re fighting against 2 generations of propaganda and a media mogul. Some say that we are too far gone, though I don’t believe in that sort of defeatism.
We have many steps that we need to take in order to be set on the right path again. It should start with revitalizing the nations public education system, with a stronger focus on a healthy life-work balance. The fact that basic things about the U.S. system aren’t taught anymore has been a huge setback. I’m young, I didn’t have any sort of homeroom or home ec, it took until my senior year in High School to even learn about how we do our taxes (and it did nothing). These classes were supplemented with “extra critical thinking”, which has clearly failed, something that can be seen by reading just about any comment about a piece of media online. Home Economics, Time Management, and Critical Thinking all meld to make life at home manageable and enjoyable. From working with schools it’s been clear to see what I went through growing up has gotten even worse, especially with Covid putting all of the students on screens and a significant portion of them hardly even learning during that time at all.
Catch up our nations students and we’ll be well on our way back to civility. Fighting against the anti-education crowd and having homeschooling be far, far, far more rigorous than it currently is - state dependent I’m certain but the 3 I’ve lived in, CA, OR, and WI, holy shit they are awful. Homeschoolings seems to have almost become co-opted by the anti- crowds, I’ve regrettably only had 1 good encounter over the last 10 years and it was because the school remained open during Covid, to which the parents said screw that we’re homeschooling. As opposed to homeschooling because they’d have to get a vaccine otherwise, or because the schools “agenda”…
Anyway, I’ve said far too much and gotten pretty off topic. It’s been a while since I’ve gotten to say anything about this and it’s clearly been pent up, otherwise I’d have wrapped this up many paragraphs ago.
I am also primarily a utilitarian thinker. What has me considering the deontological position on this specifically is that, for utilitarian purposes, I have voted to allow our entire federal government to continue to drift right. When choosing the lesser of the two evils every time I did, I think I failed to consider that my permissiveness would embolden the lesser of the two evils to become increasingly evil as they were aware I wasn’t voting for them but against their opponent. I gave them license though my voting behavior to move to the right as much as they wanted and be financially rewarded for doing so because they knew they would always have my vote as long as they weren’t as bad as their opponents. This genocide is a red flag to me that since I have been voting to avoid immediate consequences, the ultimate consequence is that some of those consequences I was afraid of are now guaranteed from both options to varying degrees. The more I have rewarded the Democrats with my vote which they need to be elected, the only thing they need from me, they have no incentive whatsoever to do anything but what benefits themselves just as long as what they do isn’t as bad as what the Republicans would do. Average people aren’t funding their campaigns, we are only handing our votes over to them because their opponents are worse, despite both of them becoming worse all the time.
When I talk about whether to grant or withhold my vote to my only actual option, it’s a matter of currency and power rather than morality. I have found that if I always grant my vote regardless of the behavior of who receives my vote, they know they have license to do the things they were doing when I voted for them and no reason whatsoever to change course according to what I would like to see and not see, such as a genocide.
You are absolutely right that there isn’t an option for president outside blue and red. Our system isn’t built for it. Blue knows I’m not suicidal and can’t vote for Red, so the question becomes whether or not I will tolerate them becoming worse every cycle as long as during each cycle their candidate isn’t as bad as their opponent who is also getting worse every cycle. The option is whether to support Blue regardless of what we do and watch the system deteriorate, or demonstrate to blue that there are limits to how far right they can move regardless of who they’re up against with the hope that at least one side will stop getting worse because there are still consequences.
The reason I want to stop this cycle is survival. I think we are guaranteed to drift into explicit oligarchy as long as both sides are allowed to continue moving rightward. Every election since 2010 has been worse than the one before it, and I don’t think there’s a reason that would change after this cycle. The Republicans are going to try to capture the appeal of Trump even though they haven’t yet, and the right wing runs on delusion so they aren’t accountable to anything. All they have to worry about is telling lies that people strongly want to believe. The Democrats have to contend with reality and in my view are party far more likely to react to something that happened here in real life so they have better chances at being elected in the future.
I will easily concede that this is awful timing. Trump is a massive threat as you described. If I thought he would be highly successful in everything you mentioned, I would not consider doing what I’ve been advocating for. Even though I know him to be incompetent and without much support outside his base for anything he wants to do, any amount of success he has will be a problem. The primary reason I see fit to act as I described is because I predict the 2028 election will be between someone who is to the right of Biden vs someone who is to the right of Trump, and every future election it will be more and more difficult to change course from where we’re headed. All future elections could be about how appealing Republican lies are vs how many people don’t want them elected and are willing to vote for anything else.
I think part of your premise here is flawed; the median Democratic lawmaker has drifted left in the past few decades quite significantly, as blue dog democrats and moderates have been slowly replaced. The Biden administration is also, in terms of supported and enacted policies, slightly to the left of the Obama administration and considerably to the left of Clinton.
I struggle to think of any issue where the Democratic Party of today is further to the right than they were 20 or 30 years ago.
That shift has happened for a large number of reasons, but one of them has been support from progressive voters replacing, in many areas, the electoral need to pander to center-right voters.
The overall country’s drift to the right has been largely driven by GOP electoral victories and the ramifications of those (like the three Supreme Court justices Trump appointed).
What has me considering the deontological position on this specifically is that, for utilitarian purposes, I have voted to allow our entire federal government to continue to drift right. When choosing the lesser of the two evils every time I did, I think I failed to consider that my permissiveness would embolden the lesser of the two evils to become increasingly evil as they were aware I wasn’t voting for them but against their opponent.
i guess my problem is, if you acknowledge this possibility: does it not logically follow that, likewise, allowing someone running as an open fascist to win might have the same or worse impact as you’re trying to avoid? because i would personally consider the argument “if Trump wins, fascism will be given a greenlight” more likely than the argument “if Biden wins, genocide will be given a greenlight” for a variety of reasons, and i would consider it more harmful if it occurred too. that’s for a few reasons: the overall shift in the party has been to the left and i think that’s far more likely to continue than a shift to the right; there’s a flourishing left-critical tendency within the Democratic Party; the overall American left the strongest it’s been in a long time, etc.
but i think most immediately it’s because i would contest the logical validity of the second argument at all. the contemporary US is a post settler-colonial society and most of its land area was acquired through genocidal processes given sanctity by the legal system. to me Biden is neither establishing a new norm nor deviating from an old one—he’s just a part of a long-normalized string of presidents like this.[1] in my mind trying to break the cycle by punishing him might be cathartic but will be politically fruitless and unlikely to produce the introspection you’re seeking. by contrast: i would argue we have not really had a fascist president—authoritarian, racist, white supremacist, truly evil? probably yes, but not fascist[2]—and so Trump winning would be a catastrophic normalization of that political tendency which we’ve to this point avoided. it would have extreme ramifications both domestically and globally, especially for the left.
and i will reiterate that i believe it entirely likely that you’re going to get a larger, more sweeping genocide from Trump and his followers than is happening in Palestine if he is given the power to do that. (it’s also obvious he’s going to continue that one based on his positioning since October 7.) we’re already seeing efforts in places like Arizona to make it de facto legal to murder undesirables like undocumented immigrants–the dehumanization needed for widespread killing to begin is clearly high in some parts of the Republican Party. in all of this space, i just don’t see very many compelling arguments for why the utilitarian perspective of harm reduction should be discarded here.
indeed i think you could charge nearly every president since the US’s inception as being complicit in or directly responsible for at least one genocide. ↩︎
i also have a hard time fitting most contemporary presidents into these categories in terms of governance even though i think these descriptors are accurate for most of them. i think Reagan is probably the most explicit offender in this regard, but even so i think it’s obvious there is a lot of distance in outcome between how he governed and how Trump has/wants to. ↩︎
Given your edit I feel compelled to point out that two things are true simultaneously:
- Direct action is effective and necessary
but also
- Direct action is not mutually exclusive with voting in any way.
Voting takes a couple of hours per year (at most) and is a tremendously effective way of keeping fascists out of power and reducing overall harm while we concurrently pursue direct action and systemic change.
I believe it is our moral obligation each day to do what we (reasonably) can, within the circumstances and powers we’re given, to ease suffering in our community and our world. On most days that’s direct action. On election days it’s spending an hour voting for harm reduction. Participating in our shitty electoral system is not an endorsement of it any more than paying taxes is an endorsement of military funding or having a credit score is an endorsement of Equifax. It’s simply the reality of having to live within a system we did not create and have limited control over. Refusing to engage with the realities we live under doesn’t make them go away - it just means more people get hurt.
I’ve ruminated and ruminated and ruminated on all of this and I can’t find any compelling philosophical or moral argument for allowing the greater evil to take hold, unless there is an imminent, likely possibility of a more just outcome following soon behind. If there was a groundswell of support in the US for a left revolution then perhaps a fascist victory could be the spark to push us towards structural change. But as it stands a plurality of Americans want (or are fine with) fascism, and they’re armed to the teeth. The most likely outcome of fascists winning the election is that fascists take over and keep power, and that will cause unfathomable harm far beyond the disgusting shortfalls of our current administration.
It’s a trolley problem, essentially. The trolley is coming down the tracks and all we can do is pull the lever to have less people die. I find that a lot of modern discourse around this in left-leaning spaces essentially comes down to “well I don’t like either option” or “there shouldn’t be a trolley!” or things like that. You know what? I agree. I don’t like either option, and there shouldn’t be a trolley. I hope we can take more direct action so there are less trolleys and less people tied to the tracks in the future. But here we are, right now, and the trolley is heading down the tracks, and we cannot stop it. It doesn’t matter that there shouldn’t be a trolley. It’s here. Not pulling the lever doesn’t make it go away, it just means that more people get hurt.
So please, by all means, prioritize direct action. Get those trolleys off those tracks. But once we’re barrelling down the hill it is our moral obligation to spend an hour pulling the lever in whatever direction necessary to minimize harm.
My friend had my favorite take I’ve heard on this: organizing to signal to the Democratic Party that Biden is in political danger because of his support of genocide (as Michigan did this week) is arguably more important than not voting for him in November, in terms of tangible impact on American policy. My personal goal is to put as much pressure on him as possible right now, and then I’ll decide if I’m voting for him later this year based on how he responds.
It was never a secret what an awful man Joe Biden is, for many of the reasons OP listed in their post. Many people in 2020 said something similar: “Elect him and then pressure him to the left.” It’s a useless sentiment.
Since 2020, despite partisans’ supposed pressure, we’ve not only seen another genocide, but homelessness has spiked, wages have not improved in a meaningful way, education and health care are still cost-prohibitive, prices for everyday goods are 2-3x what they were Pre-Biden, Roe has been repealed and SCOTUS has made it very clear they’re going to target queer people next, and they’ve added hundreds of billions more in debt to help Ukraine while neglecting Americans. He even withheld $600 of promised COVID aid. He’s been such an atrocity of a president that it’s likely to get Trump reelected.
And this is coming from someone who voted Biden in the hopes that a cultural win against rising fascist interests might turn back the clock, but I was wrong. Biden, either in his greed or fecklessness (depending on who you ask, I suppose) has created the conditions for a probable fascist takeover. Personally, I think it’s greed.
I’m not sure there’s a reasonable argument to be made that there isn’t a fascist candidate in the next presidential election. One candidate will stab you in the front. The other will stab you in the back.
Also, just a personal pet peeve, but people need to stop using the word ‘democracy’. We don’t have one, and it was designed that way.
So, I actually agreed with most of what you just said, as of 2020. Biden seemed to me like another crooked rich white guy who’s been in Washington all his life, and I didn’t have real high hopes for him. You touched on a couple of specifics of his history that fed into that, yes. Honestly, I don’t have real high hopes for the majority of the Democrats; I like Bernie Sanders and there are individual Democrats who do pretty good things from time to time but I think by and large Washington doesn’t know and doesn’t care what ordinary people need, and that’s why the country is as fucked up as it is. The whole reason Trump was even able to have a showing in the election was because the Democrats, like the Republicans, have mostly turned their backs on working people ever since Jimmy Carter. I still voted for him obviously, because the available alternative was “let’s invade Mexico let’s kill the vice president if he won’t play ball with seizing power,” but it wasn’t because I was real happy about the idea of Biden.
I was genuinely very surprised. He forgave a ton of student loan debt, he issued marijuana pardons, his economic policy actually seemed invested in benefits for working people. There’s a common talking point about the rail strike – did you know that his labor department kept working the issue after the strike, and got the workers their sick days? There’s a whole list of stuff that he’s done that radically outside the norm for a standard Bill Clinton center-right Democrat goon.
I also think it’s weird to hammer on him for Gaza when he didn’t invade Gaza and he didn’t create the murderous pro-Israel foreign policy that’s been a US mainstay for 50+ years – basically, Biden is not the one committing genocide. I think the link “Biden = Genocide” is a talking point that anti-Biden people like to hammer on because there is some fairness to it. It’s to his credit that he did put sanctions on a handful of Israeli settlers which is way outside the norm for US presidents. He is now using the words “cease-fire” which Western leaders as a rule tend to try to avoid saying because Israel doesn’t want to stop killing people. Is any of that enough? Fuck no. Is he enabling Israel now? Yes. Do I hope that the political price he’s paying for supporting Israel will convince him and future presidents to maybe not give them a free pass for their state-sponsored murder? Fuck yes. But he’s not calling the shots on the ground for the IDF while they’re killing people, either.
I mean, I’m obviously going to vote for him if he’s the nominee. Not because I love the Democratic establishment or feel “allegiance” to them or anything, but because Trump is the end of the fucking world. I vote to try to produce better outcomes, and to me Trump is so clearly a Hitler-reincarnate that I would vote for a rotting whale carcass if it was running against him.
I genuinely do not get this “Biden is bad, so it’s okay if someone 10 times worse wins the election” logic. I would actually really like to have some option for someone not Biden to support in the general election, but if it winds up that the DNC refuses to listen to reason and runs him again, I definitely plan to vote for him because… I mean, if you don’t like Biden enabling genocide by not reversing US foreign policy (which, again, I don’t either), then you’re really going to hate it when Trump announces suddenly he’s going to nuke Iran because it’s full of vermin and dirty diseased people and he’s sure that some of them are nice people but anyway we did it because all the military is full of his loyalists now.
Biden did exceed my expectations by doing a lot of what you mentioned, and I was fully ready to support him as better than nothing rather than bad but not the worst. I would have been thrilled with another few years of non-chaos and a handful of good deeds which are even more progressive than almost anything we’ve had in decades. After he did a 180 on unions after getting called out for busting them we have had some real meaningful progress in the area of labor rights. I was ready to accept Biden not on terms of my own desires and values but in the context of the pressures of an American president, especially one since the Citizen’s United decision. Like pretty much everyone who typically votes Democrat, I have my preferred candidate but would support the nominee considering the danger of the alternative.
I never thought I would be a single-issue voter and I’ve even thought that engaging like that is naive and even immature. My thing is that once both of my choices are pro-genocide I have really started to re-consider the political direction we’re heading and what has lead us to this point. I don’t think we’re now experiencing how bad it can get, and I’m now considering how things might have been different if voters had made a stronger stand by letting pre-Trump Republicans win to show the DNC that their behavior will have electoral consequences. The thing is we really had no idea how things would go when this kind of thing would have far less dire consequences.
I am fully aware that Biden is far from unique in his support of Israel regardless of what they do. Although especially severe, the current ethnic cleansing going on is far from the first push and is happening in the context of the greater genocide which has been occurring for the better part of a century. The US has almost always supported and covered for them, as you mentioned. You are also correct to say that Biden isn’t himself driving this genocide and is even attempting to reduce the carnage through diplomacy. I will even go so far as to say that a Democrat supporting Operation Cast Lead in 2004 wouldn’t have been a deal-breaker for me if they were running against GWB, and I consider that event to be heinous. I am holding Biden to a different standard than I would have in the past, and this is due to context.
In 2004 Operation Cast Lead was a fringe issue with managed exposure and general bipartisan support. Only those who had gone out of their way to learn about the situation outside of American media, government, and education in 2004 had any idea what was really going on. Anyone making a big deal about it would have been easily swept under the rug. Everyone else can credibly claim that they had no idea what was really going on. The whole Overton window was from “I support Israel” to “It’s a very complicated situation, and I support Israel,” and this was due to the extent of the information Americans were commonly exposed to at that time.
2024 is quite a bit different than 2004. Information is now out of control for good and for bad. All the information which has always been managed to be pro-Israel still exists but is now no longer the whole picture the average person sees. Despite the best efforts of the US and Israeli governments to manage exposure carefully of this event, no such ability for such overwhelming control exists at the moment without cracking down on free speech. As a consequence, far more people than these governments are comfortable with have seen what they don’t want to be seen. The New York Times and the Washington Post are the same as they’ve ever been, but it is more commonly understood now than ever that these sources are far from objective as they claim to be, and foreign english-language media is more accessible than ever. The information is everywhere and now everyone at least has the opportunity to learn as much about it as they can. At this point anyone sticking to the government line is responsible for the behavior of choosing to believe lies for whatever reason, and anyone interested in what is true and is not true understands that our government is facilitating a genocide. It is now a well-known and well-understood issue compared to decades past.
Although Biden didn’t himself order this ethnic cleansing, he has chosen to support it economically and politically. What has been happening would not be happening to this degree if not for this support. I consider the behavior of the Biden administration to be instrumental in the level of destruction which has been undertaken, and I blame Biden for not even conditioning our political and economic support on the polite requests he’s been making which are barely even acknowledged. This behavior disturbs me because it’s as if they aren’t even considering holding Israel to any reasonable standards regardless of the new rapidly spreading awareness that what Israel is doing is plainly horrendous. They expect no consequences for fueling the genocidal fire.
With that context, unlike in 2004 the general voting public is aware that a genocide is happening and their voting behavior knowing this is going to be taken into account in future political strategy. They know that we know there’s a genocide happening, so whatever message we send with our voting behavior is going to be considered in future political action. I hope the message they receive is “We know there’s a genocide, and the reason you lost is because we can’t support a genocide” rather than “We know there’s a genocide, but your threat worked so we voted for you anyway. It’ll take a lot worse than that to lose my vote!” I know that from the administration’s perspective, 2024 is no different than 2004 in terms of the potential consequences of funding a genocidal action. I think it would be a good thing if they were wrong about that.
To clarify my argument, I don’t think that since Biden is bad that alone would lead me to allow a far worse evil to take power. My argument is that supporting a Democratic candidate when they know that we know about the genocide they’re facilitating, they will have a basis to push our boundaries even further in the interests of their campaign funders as they have been doing since since Citizen’s United. I think it’s pretty late to take the extreme action I’m advocating for in my post to allow Trump to run rampant in the hopes that the Democrats understand there are limits to what voters will tolerate. If the lesson they learn is that there are no limits to what voters will tolerate as long as there is a worse option, then I’m afraid our two evil options will continue to get worse.
four paid sick days a year
If this is progress we are all truly screwed.
We are screwed. That’s a key feature of the nature of the current US economy.
That doesn’t mean that I think it’s a good idea to take someone who did work to fix some aspect of it, from absolutely pitiful to slightly-less-awful-and-pitiful, and scream “GENOCIDE JOE GENOCIDE JOE” in their face and enable instead someone ten times worse, who will actively take us backwards to the best of his ability for the entire time he’s in office. That seems, in fact, to be counterproductive.
You basically echoed perfectly my feelings on this all. I think your observation, that many people (especially Centrist Dems) are myopically focusing on Trump as the only force driving us towards fascism, is spot on.
I do not want Trump to be elected over Biden, and I will not under any circumstances vote for Trump, but I have decided that I’m not going to take part in a system that forces me to endorse a candidate, via my vote, who will further a genocide.
Democracy is supposed to be about political representation and the ability of the citizenry to direct the government, and that’s not what we have here in the US. My politics are not represented by Biden or Trump, and I won’t be coerced into actively aiding and abetting a genocide.
Others may have a different line in the sand. This is mine.
Congratulations, by not voting for Biden none of your politics are being represented and you’re helping Trump get elected.
As a bonus, by helping Trump get elected you’ll be actively aiding and abetting whatever Trump decides to do, which I’m sure will be great for the people in Gaza.
But you’re not crossing your line in the sand so I’m sure you’ll sleep well at night knowing you stuck to your guns.
By voting for Biden, none of my politics are being represented anyways.
And please, explain to me how my not voting for Biden helps Trump get elected. Be specific.
I’m not them and I’m not going to give details, but I’d like to posit why I personally am against the idea of not voting. First though, this has nothing to do with you or how I feel about your stance here, I’m not trying to attack you or change your mind, I’m simply expressing my thoughts about how I participate as a U.S. citizen. To me, voting is pretty much the bare minimum - our roles as citizens of the United States pretty much designates us to do this one thing.
So you don’t vote. You say something about it and why, gives someone else an idea to do the same. Word gets out and your entire town decides to have solidarity with you. The rippling effect of you being an active non-voter is potentially harmful. At it’s core, that’s all it really is.
I could go on, but it would be redundant. You are still participating, something seen by others who then may decide to also do it that way, which completely strips your power as a citizen. I do believe it serves it up on a silver platter to something you don’t agree with ideologically. As you said, you don’t agree with Biden’s ideology, which I agree with. I’m glad he’s attempted student loan relief and puts pledges towards national hunger, further encouraged policies that give more $$ towards earnings up to $55k (under Obama, initially $47k, lowered to $35k under Trump), and surprisingly getting involved in the situation happening in Rwanda and not completely butchering it. He’s done some solid actions, even if there are just as many things (maybe more) than I could be disappointed by.
But you are still participating, regardless of whether you want to or not. That does leave you 2 alternatives, which is to abstain, or to vote with someone with an even greater ideological difference. As a U.S. citizen, there is no way for us to not participate.
I think it’s fairly circumstantial from there. You not voting for any ideology is making a choice that you are complacent with either one, when in reality you are abstaining specifically because you are against them. Whether you not voting actually affects something outside of your single vote is relative. As in - in that hypothetical where you saying you won’t vote gets someone else to do the same, it goes both ways where they could have voted D/R/ or 3rd party. We are a social creature and there is some inherent value to sharing. Again, whether this is the reality or not is strongly related to where you are and who/how you interact.
So for me personally, few of my values are supported by voting for Biden, however none of my values are supported by abstaining, none are supported by voting R, and, this is most important, none of my values are supported by me being silent. You aren’t being represented by abstaining either. That is to say - I am in the exact same position as you, yet I choose to vote for a lesser evil because as I do it I am also campaigning for proper humanitarian values, campaigning for a future that will actually serve me and our people. By involving myself in it I am having a conversation with other people participating in our situation. They inform me, I inform them, and we may or may not come to similar conclusions based off these interactions.
Abstaining never gives this conversation the light of day. It’s the equivalent to sticking your head in the sand, because the unfortunately sick reality is that the war machine will keep the meat grinder going regardless of whether you choose to participate, which is exactly the reason why we must participate. By abstaining not only are we acknowledging all of the shortcomings but we are explicitly saying, “I’m okay with this and I am choosing not to do anything about it.” I think this gets said so often specifically because you do have an alternative, which is participating politically. It should always be read as get involved locally, because obviously you or I have little actual impact on these candidates - that’s never been the point. The point is to engage with other people living under the same responsibility.
Finally, when posed with an impossible choice, abstaining is an attempt to remove oneself from responsibility. We have to face these challenges head on, in broad daylight, surrounded by our peers. Else we sweep it under the rug for the next generation to deal with.
I’m the generation that had climate change swept under the rug, that had the U.S. destabilization of the Middle East and Africa, and some thousand or so corporate secrets from gas and oil spills teflon and xenophobia. I’m at the point in my life where I would like to do my best to ensure the rug is cleaned out. Our wars are more public than ever, our knowledge of climate change is more prevalent than ever, and our awareness of corporate profits in name of human health is higher than ever. I would like to continue this transparency by actively electing a candidate that will acknowledge the shortcomings of our country so that it can become a better place.
No, Biden will not be the one to do this, but his Presidency is far more likely to pave the way for this than Trump is. And that is why we have to vote - not only so that we don’t get Trump, but so that we can put the nation on a path to having a chance of doing the right thing.
Anyway, again I’m not trying to chide your position or claim that you are serving Trump his presidency on a silver platter. That is dumb and a poor rhetoric to take with someone. There is also the whole fact that we have many different rounds of voting, it’s insinuated that it’s the general Presidency election but it may not be, so I wonder if people get defensive for local elections. To which of course I say -
State representatives 1) do have to be elected, 2) do have briefings on constituent requests, and 3) could be you! Jk (unless…?) no for real, 3) that there are other people like you who may not feel fully represented by the state reps, to which I say change is possible. We just… we actually have to do something about it, and usually that means fully informed voting.
This is a lot to respond to, so I will first say that I am only not voting for President. I am and always do vote in races in my local area, as in my area there are choices who align with my beliefs.
You not voting for any ideology is making a choice that you are complacent with either one, when in reality you are abstaining specifically because you are against them.
This is simply a matter of perspective. If I hand you a gun and tell you to shoot the less-evil of 2 people, and you choose to drop the gun instead, are you actually “complacent” with both of them, or are you refusing to commit murder? Well, both candidates are pro-genocide, and I refuse to take part in that.
Finally, when posed with an impossible choice, abstaining is an attempt to remove oneself from responsibility.
In a situation where democracy is actually driving the country and participation can actually change the direction of the country, I would agree. In a case where the political and wealth classes operate as an oligarchy that offers you the appearance of agency in order to then use your vote as a mandate to justify whatever evil they do, all you’re doing is serving to legitimize their false choices. Obviously, if you don’t believe our federal-level politics have fallen that far, we’re probably not ever going to agree on how to move forwards.
[Biden’s] Presidency is far more likely to pave the way for this than Trump is.
This is another point where you and I probably fundamentally disagree. I don’t think Biden is paving the way for anything but more Center-Right presidents like Biden. He’s not pushing us Left. He’s not enabling that. He’s actually pushing us to the Right. Ronald Reagan was literally harder on Israel for committing crimes than Biden has been. Biden has pushed for mass-incarceration and police funding his entire political life. He’s pushing anti-immigrant policies at the border. He’s alienating Progressives, while getting people (like many here) to defend him as “paving the way” for the future Left.
You think he’s paving the way for a better country. I think he’s actively alienating Progressives and minorities from the Democratic Party in order to prevent it shifting to the Left, paving the way for DeSantis in 2028, and funding and supplying a genocide along the way.
none of my values are supported by abstaining
One of my values is not actively handing power to evil people, and I do believe Biden is evil. Abstaining is not preventing Biden or Trump from taking power, but the reality is that there is no (legal) way for me to do that. Using “actively preventing bad people from taking power” as the standard for action is also not met by voting, if both choices are bad.
This is simply a matter of perspective. If I hand you a gun and tell you to shoot the less-evil of 2 people, and you choose to drop the gun instead, are you actually “complacent” with both of them, or are you refusing to commit murder? Well, both candidates are pro-genocide, and I refuse to take part in that.
This metaphor doesn’t work, because in this case one of the two people will get shot no matter what. It’s akin to the trolley problem, and the trolley is already barreling down the hill. Refusing to participate doesn’t make the trolley go away, it just means that more people die.
In a situation where democracy is actually driving the country and participation can actually change the direction of the country, I would agree. In a case where the political and wealth classes operate as an oligarchy that offers you the appearance of agency in order to then use your vote as a mandate to justify whatever evil they do, all you’re doing is serving to legitimize their false choices. Obviously, if you don’t believe our federal-level politics have fallen that far, we’re probably not ever going to agree on how to move forwards.
Our federal-level politics have fallen very, very far. They do change the direction of the country, however, even if the changes are insufficient and not always exactly what I prefer. A simple example is the Inflation Reduction Act, which single-handedly doubled investment in clean energy and decreased the “gap” we need to cut in greenhouse emissions by 2/3rds.. Is it what I wanted? Is it “enough?” No. But it changed the direction of the country in a meaningful way.
This is another point where you and I probably fundamentally disagree. I don’t think Biden is paving the way for anything but more Center-Right presidents like Biden. He’s not pushing us Left. He’s not enabling that. He’s actually pushing us to the Right. Ronald Reagan was literally harder on Israel for committing crimes than Biden has been. Biden has pushed for mass-incarceration and police funding his entire political life. He’s pushing anti-immigrant policies at the border. He’s alienating Progressives, while getting people (like many here) to defend him as “paving the way” for the future Left.
The Biden Administration, in terms of enacted policies, is further to the left than the Obama and Clinton administrations were. Him being absolutely awful on Israel does not change that overall balance.
Does that mean he’s “left” or pushing us there? Of course not. We’re a right-leaning country where a plurality of people want fascism, and Joe Biden sucks.
You think he’s paving the way for a better country. I think he’s actively alienating Progressives and minorities from the Democratic Party in order to prevent it shifting to the Left, paving the way for DeSantis in 2028, and funding and supplying a genocide along the way.
One of my values is not actively handing power to evil people, and I do believe Biden is evil. Abstaining is not preventing Biden or Trump from taking power, but the reality is that there is no (legal) way for me to do that. Using “actively preventing bad people from taking power” as the standard for action is also not met by voting, if both choices are bad.
The trolley is coming and will run over someone whether you participate or not. Pulling the lever for harm reduction is not mutually exclusive with any other form of direct action and is an effective means of short-term harm reduction while we work towards popular support for long-term systemic change. As it stands any sort of revolution in the US would be far, far more likely to lead to right-wing authoritarianism than it would be to push us left; not only is the country right-leaning, but the right-wingers are armed to the teeth.
Biden winning means we buy more time to change the tide that before fascists take power again. Trump winning means fascists take power now with an electoral mandate and popular support.
It is our moral obligation, every day, to do what we can within the circumstances we’re given to reduce harm. Participating within the circumstances we’re given isn’t an endorsement of them; using the internet doesn’t mean I endorse my ISP, and having a credit card doesn’t mean I endorse capitalism. It’s just the reality of having to navigate a complex world filled with systems and circumstances I did not set up and don’t control. The trolley is already on the tracks; 364 days of the year we can talk about how there shouldn’t be trolleys. I hope one day there won’t be any more trolleys. But for the hour or two it takes to vote on that 365th day pulling the lever is the most effective means of harm reduction.
I have not seen a single compelling case for how allowing fascists to take power will lead to less harm or a better future. If there is one I’m all ears.
