I do industrial automation for a living, and I just want to point out that automating things that exist purely in the digital domain is far easier than automating things like ship breaking.
Cant imagine how it even could be automated without advanced robotics. Those ships are freakin HUGE! Maybe a collection of robotic snakes with cutting lazers attached to their heads and some little scuttle bots to pick up the pieces the snakes knock off? Just cut the whole thing into 1’ disks or maybe hexagons is better
Oh, there is actually a fourth one by a different author but with Liu Cixin’s approval. It goes deeper into the trisolarian biology than the main series. I havent read that one yet
[…] I just want to point out that automating things that exist purely in the digital domain is far easier than automating things like ship breaking.
Not that you’re saying otherwise, however isn’t that even more of a reason more developers and resources should be allocated toward automating complex and risky physical processes?
Eh, it could be done with non-general AI. There are a finite number of different types of things to handle, so as long as it’s not thrown off by some bent steel or some missing consoles, I’d be amazed if they couldn’t automate at least specific ship designs.
Firstly, much of shipbuilding is automated. They use robots to paint them and apply anti-fouling coatings. They also use loads and loads of automated machinery to create the steel parts that make up most of the ship. Do you think some dudes are forging rivets, beams, and pipes by hand? No, those are made by machines that make zillions of them.
Secondly, nearly every ship–even ships that seem generic like big container ships–is a custom, one-off thing. They’re all bespoke (for the most part), being engineered for specific purposes, routes, and they even have “upgrades” for companies that pay extra (e.g. nicer quarters, extra antenna masts, more and special equipment mounting options, etc).
Automation requires very high precision/consistency in the parts you want to work on. I seriously doubt that after many years of wear, tear, and impromptu repairs, those ships would be anywhere near consistent enough.
That’s why I said, “eventually with non-general AI”.
Even a well written algorithm could work with something that’s mostly in expected shape. How in the flying fuck is everyone so brainless that they cannot understand non-general AI can still adapt to things? Fucking hell.
I’m not talking about current industry practices. I’m talking about combining existing technology with unlimited bidget to create a factory that could kinda’ do the task.
“Possible” and “practical” are two extremely different things, and you goons pointing out that most obvious basic fact are adding nothing.
Why the flying fuck do you think I said, “non-general AI”? Even a well written algorithm could handle things coming in not in perfect shape, yet everyone pretends “non-general AI” means, “execute instructions repeatedly without any input what so ever.”
Use your brain. Even basic dumb algorithms that can run on an Arduino can respond to input. Machine learning can easily respond to dynamic input, so stop failing to imagine the most basic of basic things I say.
That doesn’t exist yet, and we can’t even build a ship with one. And you’re trying to say we can take one apart?
Use your fucking brain lmfao. It will be thrown off by bent metal, it will be thrown off by repairs, it will be thrown off by a rusted screw, it will be thrown off by a million other potential issues.
It ain’t ever gonna work for a billion reasons, you aren’t smarter than other people mate lmfao. You’re dumber for claiming it will even be possible lol. Nice take though.
Non-general AI does already exist, at least as far as disassembling something with a blueprint is concerned. If it’s already a trash heap, just scrap it the old fashioned way, you fucking numpty.
You assume it will be thrown off because you are too stupid to imagine something you don’t understand. There is literally NO reason to assume it’d be dumber than current tech.
Not that you’re saying otherwise, however isn’t that even more of a reason more developers and resources should be allocated toward automating complex and risky physical processes?
You’re solving for the wrong problem from the perspective of people with money investing money to solve these problems.
Shipbreaking, while dangerous for the workers, isn’t expensive because it is done in far flung countries with workers that have low wages, few protections for safety, and long term health consequences.
Art and writing (for western consumption) requires educated and talented people which are expensive to employ.
People with money, looking for a return, want that return their spending, not reduce human suffering.
Processing the digital world is just the first step. You can’t just build a safe autonomous ship disassembly robot without making sure your algorithms are actually sound. Look at self driving cars, they’re far from being safe and acceptable. Jumping straight into this problem without testing the shit out of your code in a virtual world is a mistake.
I mean automating it would certainly be a challenge but the first step would be building tools and robotics to allow human operators to more safely and effectively manage the tasks. Then you streamline the industrialized processes. Then you think about automating things.
But this is all really an economic problem, not a technical one. Software tools have minimal resource costs (compared to building/destroying a ship) but require skilled (expensive) laborers to operate. So to cut costs in any digital field you need to get rid of the expensive laborers. Thus the push for AI to replace any computer-bound work. Physical labor is already considered dirt-cheap in our fucked society, and no one is rushing to add expensive tools in fields where disposable people will suffice.
I sympathize immensely with the OP image’s final point, but “working for the right company” isn’t going to fix it. Reorganizing society is necessary, rethinking what we culturally value and uphold.
I think the solution for ship breakers is for the job to be a highly paid respectable job with protections. In other words the technology that desperately needs to disrupt this industry is probably… unions
Yeah I think that’s the point. Ship breaking is apparently poorly paid so they need unions.
I also not sure how much scope there is for automation on tasks like this as each shit will be different there isn’t going to be a huge amount of repeatable action
Honestly more unions should fight for company stock for employees or similar stake programs. As we hopefully get more automated having workers interests aligned against it seems like a losing fight.
Once we perfect doing it in software, then we can graduate to hardware. Today, digital paintings; tomorrow, real paintings; next year, tear down a fucking ship!
That is really cool job description I haven’t seen pop up before! Would you mind sharing what type of things you need to automate? It sounds so interesting, I never really understood why factory line jobs should exist for example * because the work is dangerous, the opposite of stimulating/engaging (works for some sure), and just generally overall depressing unpleasant places to work. We SHOULD be striving for a world where humans don’t have to do such menial unfufilling work.
*very superficially, all the nuance that makes it continue to be necessary and exist I understand)
Yeah exactly, I work in AI and robotics for medicine, and im so goddamn sick and tired of these people and their absolute god-awful uneducated takes on AI.
I do industrial automation for a living, and I just want to point out that automating things that exist purely in the digital domain is far easier than automating things like ship breaking.
Cant imagine how it even could be automated without advanced robotics. Those ships are freakin HUGE! Maybe a collection of robotic snakes with cutting lazers attached to their heads and some little scuttle bots to pick up the pieces the snakes knock off? Just cut the whole thing into 1’ disks or maybe hexagons is better
Upvoot for the matrix
Just make a huge version of those supermarket bread slicer machines and feed the ships through it.
I just read The Three Body Problem, and I have some ideas on how it could be done.
Oh! One of my favorite books, have you read all three?
Not yet, but I will!
Oh, there is actually a fourth one by a different author but with Liu Cixin’s approval. It goes deeper into the trisolarian biology than the main series. I havent read that one yet
I’d suggest skipping it. While it’s a fun continuation, the writer is not nearly as good as Liu Cixin. It’s definitely a fanfic
The three book problem
Definitely not terrifying
Not that you’re saying otherwise, however isn’t that even more of a reason more developers and resources should be allocated toward automating complex and risky physical processes?
Honestly, I don’t see how you would do it without general AI, which is something that will be solved in the digital domain first anyway.
Eh, it could be done with non-general AI. There are a finite number of different types of things to handle, so as long as it’s not thrown off by some bent steel or some missing consoles, I’d be amazed if they couldn’t automate at least specific ship designs.
They still manually build ships right now what makes you think they could automate taking one apart
Firstly, much of shipbuilding is automated. They use robots to paint them and apply anti-fouling coatings. They also use loads and loads of automated machinery to create the steel parts that make up most of the ship. Do you think some dudes are forging rivets, beams, and pipes by hand? No, those are made by machines that make zillions of them.
Secondly, nearly every ship–even ships that seem generic like big container ships–is a custom, one-off thing. They’re all bespoke (for the most part), being engineered for specific purposes, routes, and they even have “upgrades” for companies that pay extra (e.g. nicer quarters, extra antenna masts, more and special equipment mounting options, etc).
Notice how my post is not talking about the present tense.
Automation requires very high precision/consistency in the parts you want to work on. I seriously doubt that after many years of wear, tear, and impromptu repairs, those ships would be anywhere near consistent enough.
That’s why I said, “eventually with non-general AI”.
Even a well written algorithm could work with something that’s mostly in expected shape. How in the flying fuck is everyone so brainless that they cannot understand non-general AI can still adapt to things? Fucking hell.
I’m not talking about current industry practices. I’m talking about combining existing technology with unlimited bidget to create a factory that could kinda’ do the task.
“Possible” and “practical” are two extremely different things, and you goons pointing out that most obvious basic fact are adding nothing.
A single repair or modification would ruin the entire automation process. One single screw off by a single mm type thing.
Why the flying fuck do you think I said, “non-general AI”? Even a well written algorithm could handle things coming in not in perfect shape, yet everyone pretends “non-general AI” means, “execute instructions repeatedly without any input what so ever.”
Use your brain. Even basic dumb algorithms that can run on an Arduino can respond to input. Machine learning can easily respond to dynamic input, so stop failing to imagine the most basic of basic things I say.
That doesn’t exist yet, and we can’t even build a ship with one. And you’re trying to say we can take one apart?
Use your fucking brain lmfao. It will be thrown off by bent metal, it will be thrown off by repairs, it will be thrown off by a rusted screw, it will be thrown off by a million other potential issues.
It ain’t ever gonna work for a billion reasons, you aren’t smarter than other people mate lmfao. You’re dumber for claiming it will even be possible lol. Nice take though.
Non-general AI does already exist, at least as far as disassembling something with a blueprint is concerned. If it’s already a trash heap, just scrap it the old fashioned way, you fucking numpty.
You assume it will be thrown off because you are too stupid to imagine something you don’t understand. There is literally NO reason to assume it’d be dumber than current tech.
But nothing would ever be identical to a blueprint because of repairs and modifications man…… add in wear and tear, yeah it ain’t happening.
That’s the part you can’t understand. We don’t have anything that can perform this yet, if you want to claim it exists, let’s see it then.
You’re solving for the wrong problem from the perspective of people with money investing money to solve these problems.
Shipbreaking, while dangerous for the workers, isn’t expensive because it is done in far flung countries with workers that have low wages, few protections for safety, and long term health consequences.
Art and writing (for western consumption) requires educated and talented people which are expensive to employ.
People with money, looking for a return, want that return their spending, not reduce human suffering.
Processing the digital world is just the first step. You can’t just build a safe autonomous ship disassembly robot without making sure your algorithms are actually sound. Look at self driving cars, they’re far from being safe and acceptable. Jumping straight into this problem without testing the shit out of your code in a virtual world is a mistake.
I mean automating it would certainly be a challenge but the first step would be building tools and robotics to allow human operators to more safely and effectively manage the tasks. Then you streamline the industrialized processes. Then you think about automating things.
But this is all really an economic problem, not a technical one. Software tools have minimal resource costs (compared to building/destroying a ship) but require skilled (expensive) laborers to operate. So to cut costs in any digital field you need to get rid of the expensive laborers. Thus the push for AI to replace any computer-bound work. Physical labor is already considered dirt-cheap in our fucked society, and no one is rushing to add expensive tools in fields where disposable people will suffice.
I sympathize immensely with the OP image’s final point, but “working for the right company” isn’t going to fix it. Reorganizing society is necessary, rethinking what we culturally value and uphold.
I think the solution for ship breakers is for the job to be a highly paid respectable job with protections. In other words the technology that desperately needs to disrupt this industry is probably… unions
Unions protect against automation that reduces labor hours.
Yeah I think that’s the point. Ship breaking is apparently poorly paid so they need unions.
I also not sure how much scope there is for automation on tasks like this as each shit will be different there isn’t going to be a huge amount of repeatable action
Your autocorrect is amazing
Honestly more unions should fight for company stock for employees or similar stake programs. As we hopefully get more automated having workers interests aligned against it seems like a losing fight.
Finally, some fucking sense into all of this.
Shh. Just give one of them dancing robot dogs an impact driver attachment. They’ll figure it out in a week.
Once we perfect doing it in software, then we can graduate to hardware. Today, digital paintings; tomorrow, real paintings; next year, tear down a fucking ship!
That is really cool job description I haven’t seen pop up before! Would you mind sharing what type of things you need to automate? It sounds so interesting, I never really understood why factory line jobs should exist for example * because the work is dangerous, the opposite of stimulating/engaging (works for some sure), and just generally overall depressing unpleasant places to work. We SHOULD be striving for a world where humans don’t have to do such menial unfufilling work.
*very superficially, all the nuance that makes it continue to be necessary and exist I understand)
Yeah exactly, I work in AI and robotics for medicine, and im so goddamn sick and tired of these people and their absolute god-awful uneducated takes on AI.