Why the focus on Patriot Act, when it was one of three factors I listed?
Because it’s the one that I see repeated most often by others and the one find most doubtful.
Why do you keep trying to say that I’m saying his stated goals were unbelievable, when I’ve repeatedly said I’m debating the specifics of how he expected to accomplish them? It’s not a “what”, it’s a “how”.
Because we started with a disagreement over what his goals were and you seem to have maintained your side of that disagreement? If you say “it was X, Y and Z” and I say, “no, it was A and B” and you then say “how on earth could what he did have achieved A” you’re not actually arguing about “how” you’re expressing your skepticism that it was A by casting doubt on how realistic it was.
I’ve repeatedly expressed my reasonings.
You haven’t expressed a reason to believe that bin Laden wanted the USA to pass a law like the PATRIOT Act. You’ve made implications that you maybe don’t actually believe it that strongly, but not gone so far as to say that you don’t believe it, and you’ve talked about the other things you believe, but you’re quite reticent to talk about that one.
I don’t mind leaving aside the other stuff because this one, I think, is more egregious.
At least you’re willing to be honest, I respect that. I’ll point out though, that the Patriot Act in isolation requires me to explain at length how a surveillance state harms American citizens, which in turn harms America. This would be a tangent. It’s far easier to deal with in conjunction with American diplomatic reputation, debt, and casualties as well, wouldn’t you agree? Taken all together, I think it becomes almost impossible to not see how grievous harm has been done, and continues to be.
One more time. I have at no time asserted that his stated goal was impossible or unachievable. Quit putting words in my mouth. I’m talking about how they get accomplished, yes? I’ve said several times now that they are possible, just not in any way quickly or straightforwardly, which I assert he likely knew, due to how painfully obvious it is and was, to anyone who picks up the briefest of US history books. Our involvement in WW1 and 2 was definitive and for very clear reason. I don’t know how someone could assert that he’s paying attention to Vietnam but not WW2.
You really want to get into a sidetrack about how a surveillance state harms the citizens of a democracy in a way that makes them prefer isolationism? I think it’s fairly straightforward if you acknowledge our voting system, but I can explain if you wish. It’s common enough sentiment in privacy circles. Importantly, it lasts until we do away with it, where war exhaustion due to casualties fades fairly quickly, historically speaking. Knowing our government, we will probably not do away with it for quite some time, though that’s more an educated guess.
edit: The main reason I don’t want to get into the privacy discussion, incidentally, is because we’re on Lemmy, where a very large number of privacy-oriented types hang out. So it strikes me as unnecessary and a little silly, despite your questioning of it. But ask one last time and I will provide some resources for you, that’s fine.
Because it’s the one that I see repeated most often by others and the one find most doubtful.
Because we started with a disagreement over what his goals were and you seem to have maintained your side of that disagreement? If you say “it was X, Y and Z” and I say, “no, it was A and B” and you then say “how on earth could what he did have achieved A” you’re not actually arguing about “how” you’re expressing your skepticism that it was A by casting doubt on how realistic it was.
You haven’t expressed a reason to believe that bin Laden wanted the USA to pass a law like the PATRIOT Act. You’ve made implications that you maybe don’t actually believe it that strongly, but not gone so far as to say that you don’t believe it, and you’ve talked about the other things you believe, but you’re quite reticent to talk about that one.
I don’t mind leaving aside the other stuff because this one, I think, is more egregious.
At least you’re willing to be honest, I respect that. I’ll point out though, that the Patriot Act in isolation requires me to explain at length how a surveillance state harms American citizens, which in turn harms America. This would be a tangent. It’s far easier to deal with in conjunction with American diplomatic reputation, debt, and casualties as well, wouldn’t you agree? Taken all together, I think it becomes almost impossible to not see how grievous harm has been done, and continues to be.
One more time. I have at no time asserted that his stated goal was impossible or unachievable. Quit putting words in my mouth. I’m talking about how they get accomplished, yes? I’ve said several times now that they are possible, just not in any way quickly or straightforwardly, which I assert he likely knew, due to how painfully obvious it is and was, to anyone who picks up the briefest of US history books. Our involvement in WW1 and 2 was definitive and for very clear reason. I don’t know how someone could assert that he’s paying attention to Vietnam but not WW2.
You really want to get into a sidetrack about how a surveillance state harms the citizens of a democracy in a way that makes them prefer isolationism? I think it’s fairly straightforward if you acknowledge our voting system, but I can explain if you wish. It’s common enough sentiment in privacy circles. Importantly, it lasts until we do away with it, where war exhaustion due to casualties fades fairly quickly, historically speaking. Knowing our government, we will probably not do away with it for quite some time, though that’s more an educated guess.
edit: The main reason I don’t want to get into the privacy discussion, incidentally, is because we’re on Lemmy, where a very large number of privacy-oriented types hang out. So it strikes me as unnecessary and a little silly, despite your questioning of it. But ask one last time and I will provide some resources for you, that’s fine.