Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.
Feddit.org now bans
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The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis
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Calls to end Zionism
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Calling for the dissolution of Israel
And much more. The full original post can be found here, or
Click here for full text of original post:
Hi.
In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.
And with that, let’s go:
In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.
Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.
There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.
If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:
- Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
- Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
- Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
- The slogan “from the river…”
- Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
- … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @[email protected] account (which all mods have access to).
To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).
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Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]
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In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.
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Press release from the previous government:
In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).
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In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)
federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)
I don’t blame the mods as they have little say in the matter but it’s sad to see never the less.
Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
Zionism means colonialism not just in practice, but from its very inception:
Yes, and you are free to critizise Zionism for that on Feddit.org. The legal problem is not that, but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews as a shortcut and leave it to courts to decide later if that was justified or not.
but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews
Sounds like they very much do play word games then.
They clearly state in one of the rules that I just linked, that calling for an end to zionism is a bannable offense.
The german state is full of witch-hunters and its people have learned nothing.
Yes and as I explained already there is a very specific legal reason for that, but this doesn’t mean you can’t critizise Zionism or call it a terrible settler-colonialist project.
there is a very specific legal reason for that
A misguided or intentionally malicious reason, for what the effect of that law is. Codifying into law the conflation of Judaism/ethnic Jewish identity with zionism is itself antisemitic. Calling for the end of Zionism isn’t the same as calling for the end of Jews or Judaism. What is the use of being allowed to criticize Zionism the ideology when you’re not also allowed to advocate for its end?
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology.” <- Ok “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel as a Zionist project should be dissolved in favor of a single-state that provides equal rights for Palestinians” <- Not ok, somehow?
The law as written only allows abstract and dissociated critique of Zionism, but forbids any criticism that comes too close to threatening Israel’s existence as a ethno-nationalist state. That’s a huge problem.
I didn’t make those laws, and I agree that the German government should make more of a distinction between antisemitism and anti-zionism. But it doesn’t and honestly in your above example you could just say:
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
An no one would object 🤷
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
Except the moderation rule feddit has implemented does not allow for this statement, unless you specifically say that jews deserve equal rights in a single-state solution - which is similar to those who respond to ‘black lives matter’ by saying ‘but all lives matter’. Saying ‘Palestinians deserve equal rights’ wouldn’t be necessary if equal rights were already afforded them, and the point of making that statement is to draw attention to the fact that currently aren’t
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
Nobody who is advocating for Palestinian liberation uses the word “destroy” or ‘destruction’ when referring to the dissolution of Israel - I only ever see those words used by people trying to make this inference between anti-zionism and antisemitism. The only people who take statements of liberation as a threat against Jews are people who are collaborating or benefiting from the oppression Israel conducts in their name.
Sorry, but you are misinterpreting that rule. What I said is perfectly compatible with the rule. The extension that this also applies to Jews is solely to preempt the common “equal rights and the Jews are free to leave” dogwistle.
And you are highly mistaken that there are no people advocating for the destruction of Israel, in fact it is quite common.
It’s so funny how you types are constantly hiding behind the law and saying, “I didn’t make the law, I don’t agree with it, but they have to do this to avoid legal liability, hands are tied” and then five seconds later you say stuff like, “criticism of Israel is a dogwhistle for antisemitism.”
You’re a coward, refusing to admit your real positions because you know you can’t defend them.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. My real position is crystal clear and I am happy to stand by it.
Oh I see. Which is why the admins/mods of Feddit.org are also publicly coming out criticizing the German government for this crackdown on nuanced speech, right? Right?
Who got the oldest artifacts in Palestine? Doesn’t seem colonizing if you have one of the earliest histories somewhere, right? That’s why Russia has a right to reclaim Ukraine /s
Do Greeks get Constantinople, Marseille and Syracuse back?
Who has the oldest artifacts in the Americas? Or Australia?
Oh I fully support America and Australia controls should be handed back to the respective natives if in either situation they would have conflict about territory
Serious mental gymnastics lol
And yet every self-declared pro-Zionist I’ve talked to says Zionism is just the right of the state of Israel to exist, and so being anti-Zionist is being for the destruction of the state, and being for the destruction of the state is being for the death or dispossession of every person in the state.
I think the German state is probably more inclined to interpret discussion of Zionism the way the pro-Zionists I’ve spoken to have describe the term.
I think the historical description in the text that you link is accurate, but if you’re trying to argue that Germans should be able to critique Zionism however they want because of that, it’s like literally getting into an argument about the literal meaning of literally with people who use literally to mean figuratively, but instead of a random teenager or twee linguistic descriptivist, you are arguing with the state.
germans supporting a genocide, why am i not surprised
also defending facism at every turn
akshually they’re just complying to law 🤓
Cool, I’ll add them to my ban list.
Didn’t blaja already defed them?
Nah, that was feddit.uk
Shot you’re right. I forgot they were two separate instances tbh.
Better yet I am trying to get them to add me to their ban list
Beat you to it without even trying hah
While the servers of feddit.org [http://feddit.org/] are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. [emphasis added]
In other words, the admins and mods can be held criminally liable for ‘anti-semitic’ speech on feddit.org because of where the admins and mods live.
If someone that lived in an area where child pornography was legal, and they posted child porn on feddit.org, the mods/admins would have the same legal obligation to remove that content. You can’t hide behind claiming that the servers are in another jurisdiction, when you control them.
You don’t have to like it, but that’s the way the law goes in Germany. It doesn’t even mean that the mods and admins agree with the law, but they can’t necessarily say what their real feelings are, because that could be taken as anti-semitism as well.
EDIT: This is why freedom of speech is important, y’all.
Did you really just uses CSAM for this analogy?!
Y’all are fucking unhinged 🤡
If both CSAM and criticism of the state of Israel are illegal in Germany, then the admins and mods are legally obligated to remove both. Their feelings and beliefs are not relevant to their legal obligation.
I don’t see how you are incapable of understanding this.
So you don’t see the difference between the two laws?
???
They both obligate moderators and administrators to remove illegal content, and failure to do so can result in criminal penalties for the people running the site.
Are you intentionally pretending that you don’t understand that both types of content–regardless of any morality–can land the admins in jail?
Just following order again hubh?
So you are intentionally being obtuse.
Got it.
No I am calling Germans for being regime bootlickers and it resulting in genocide, champ
You are being dense about it sure follow your shit laws 🤡
I got a call you can gaurd ;)
Read the comments and see who’s catching bans. It’s one thing to be made to comply by force, it’s another to be celebrating that you’re now gonna be censoring anti Zionists
I can’t see who is catching a ban for what comment, because the comments have been censored. Q.E.D.
…Much like I have been for pointing out how the law functions. So, that’s cool, I guess.
FWIW, a number of states int he US have passed anti-BDS laws; it should be blatantly illegal under 1A to prevent institutions from boycotting Israel, and yet, so far, those laws haven’t been seriously challenged.
How do I ban an entire instance
Assuming you’re using the default Lemmy UI, there’s a block settings menu in your account settings page. It’s worth exploring, there’s some good options to play around with.
So they’re basically declaring themselves a fascist instance. I mean calling for end of Zionism is calling for an end of a fascist ideal, therefore that instance is declaring itself a fascist organization. Simple. Yeah no one should be Federated with this place.
A post about white people doing white people things and banning anyone not in full support of genocide, and even the criticism has to be half about China this and China that.
Y’all are exactly the type of idiot who sets up the conditions for these ghouls to do another genocide to then go on your merry way to act like the monsters are they before you spread blood libel against somebody else.
Fuck y’all. Read the fucking room and examine yourself for once.
Sorry? I guess?
The write-up they link is also insightful. Notably, they “explicitly reject these accusations” of being Zionists and insist it’s a legal precaution required by their countries.
I’ve bought servers for hosting some small communities and I sometimes thought maybe I was paranoid for retaining anonymity and carefully picking the country and company to allow muh freedoms as far as speech goes, but it’s interesting seeing .world and feddit pull out the “just following legislation” card (which is understandable, given that staff imprisonment is obviously bad for their community, but also irresponsible and complicit to simply accept the situation instead of resolving it, and because this is an internet community there are safe ways to resolve it).
Feddit.org was not started as an law-skirting activist space with specific op-sec requirements.
My impression when talking with the admins is that they are quite sympethatic to such efforts, but simply ask that to be done somewhere else where it is safer for everyone involved.
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How much ranting do you think they will be able to do from inside a jail cell?
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It is however illegal for them to allow such material to remain on their servers once they’re made aware of it.
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No it isn’t, the server isn’t hosted in Germany
This is false. The German police will contact the Austrian one, who will share the contact details of the persons legally responsible for publication, and if those happen to be residents of Germany, the Austrian laws are irrelevant to what the German police does.
Is there any example of that happening?
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The members have a choice to leave if they don’t like the rules.
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Their server isn’t located within Germany, from what I’m reading.
From what I understand, the situation they are worried about is a german authority gaining access to their personal devices or somehow de-anonymizing their accounts and associating them with their actual identity while living in/traveling through germany, and seeing the type of content they are posting/allowing to be posted on a community they moderate.
The actual risk of exposure to them is incredibly small.
It’s wild how lies and propaganda spread in real time.
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
Y’all grabbed your pitchforks before you even got to that part, didn’t you?
You can’t call for the end of israel, a state started by ethnically cleansing the Palestinians and stealing their land. You don’t realize why thats a problem?
Take it up with Germany, the country in which they live.
What, you’re scared of getting harrassed by your government for wrongthink on your hobby project? You sir are the actual fascist! We’ll defederate! Can’t let any of those instance users access ours. 🤡
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You can criticize Zionism as an ideology, but you can’t call for its end.
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You can refer to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” but you can’t call for the dissolution of the state of Israel as it currently exists.
You see the problem, surely?
Ummm… Take it up with Germany?
Germany doesn’t have jurisdiction on servers hosted in Austria. This “German law” defense doesn’t make the remotest amount of sense.
These laws are AFAIK in Austria similar to those in Germany, and Austrian police will share the contact details of those responsible for publication who happen to be people living in Germany. The server location alone is not the only criteria.
Germany is doing plenty of extra-judicial repression of pro-Palestine activism. Jurisdiction doesn’t matter.
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While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany… Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations.
Lol, they’re trying to pretend that the cops will kick down their doors if someone says “free Palestine” on a server they’re mods of.
So if that’s not the case, that does mean Germany is not fascist? Or are they fascist and is their policy justified?
You’re not keeping up with the news from Germany then I take it.
I know that they’re repressing opposition to Israel, but I have not heard of them arresting someone just for being a moderator on a website that doesn’t follow German law.
The moderators less likely, but the server admins quite likely, as those are legally responsible for the publication. Where the server is physically located is actually of lesser relevance in that regard.
Is their any precedent for social media admins being arrested for comments on the site the administrate?
There are precedences of public forum admins having their homes raided by police and all communication devices confiscated, yes.
Source?
Literally in the original post linked above.
German police gonna arrest Austrian based admins?
The admins responsible for the Lemmy instance AFAIK live in Germany.
I live in Germany, and it’s a totally realistic scenario, especially in Bavaria. They seize computers to intimidate digital activists all the time for way less serious topics.
Have they ever raided someone just for being the admin on a social media site?
social media site specifically I don’t know, but raids for managing infrastructure for completely legal but politically inconvenient activities, yes, plenty. I remember going to a talk from a guy managing the servers of Extinction Rebellion and he got all his stuff seized, never got accused of anything, had to wait months to get his stuff back and never got back a few things.
Source?
And that’s very different to just being an admin on a social media site that doesn’t ruthlessly enforce German law.
So here’s an article about a raid on an environmentalist group in Germany called Last Generation: https://earth.org/last-generation-activists/
There’s a link to the German language statement from the police which is quite readable after translation, and of course the article itself describes the general activities that they were engaged in and accused of.
Of the activities that they were accused of, it does seem in line with prior environmental activist groups like Extinction Rebellion, Greenpeace, and Earth First!
As for what laws get enforced by a website, that is going to depend on jurisdiction. For example, the USA has section 230 of the DMCA, which holds that website operators are not responsible for user content with the exception of content accused of violating copyright within certain parameters. Doesn’t mean they won’t raid your servers, just means you won’t be held legally responsible if they think you were sufficiently responsive to issues when raised.
At this time I don’t know the specifics of what Germans have to think about to avoid state interference, but it does look like it is more severe than what the US has to do with.
So not a source for the claim.
Oh man. Come on Lemmy.
Maybe read the post again and put yourself in the shoes of the admins and mods who do live in Germany.
Each of you personally has your own views on the Israel / Palestine genocide, and that’s absolutely fine.
However, very few of you risk personal criminal prosecution in support of Palestine. The people involved in hosting a lemmy instance are volunteers, who probably didn’t sign up for that kind of risk.
Also, the very nature of federation means that feddit can restrict this content on their servers confident in the knowledge that other servers can host this content in a jurisdiction that doesn’t have the same risks.
If I was one of the admins who lived in Germany, I would just step down; not capitulating to genocidal fascists is more important than getting to run my own little digital fiefdom.
My country is literally arbitrarily detaining and deporting/imprisoning people for advocating for a free Palestine. I still go to protests.
Free Palestine, from the river to the sea!
Maybe read the post again and put yourself in the shoes of the admins and mods who do live in Germany.
Man sucks to be them. Oh well, better preemptively censor all words because its illegal! Don’t stand for what’s right!
Why are you on an anarchist instance if you are for states limiting speech?
Maybe read the post again and put yourself in the shoes of the admins and mods who do live in Germany.
What’s next? Put yourself in the shoes of the soldiers firing upon unarmed people?
Also, the genocide is immoral, inhumane, and needs to stop. I don’t know any other personal view that can be “absolutely fine”
Well, I guess you could put yourself in the shoes of soldiers if that floats your boat but it’s obviously not analogous to lemmy admins.
As I said, foregoing the personal risk doesn’t harm Palestinians in any way. You’re free to bemoan genocide on pretty much any other instance.
Feddit.Org has no business hosting pan EU subs. German law is designed to prevent proepr discussion on the topic and bootlickers love it like that
Are you saying that because you genuinely believe your statement isn’t an instance of the slippery slope fallacy, or because you want to insult me?
I did not leave reddit to come to a fucked down version of political censorship. fuck you and begone. I’m blocking their instance
Tbh, I can understand it. There have been police raids kicking in doors of families with small children at 5 in the morning for having a Facebook post saying “from the … to the …” (I am also in Germany…). The police went through all of the families belongings and took all web-connected electronics.
The situation is really rough here in Germany.
