• suburban_hillbilly@lemmy.ml
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    29 days ago

    The number of people in this country that think you’re allowed to murder other people for trespassing is insane. Guy should spend a very long time in jail, the absolute shit-for-brains asshole.

  • klisurovi4@midwest.social
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    29 days ago

    I am not justifying the guy’s actions in any way, but the article says the teens hopped the fence and walked around the property looking for the homeowner. I can certainly understand why the woman would feel threatened. It’s not an excuse for anybody to just start shooting, but this feels like an extremely dumb decision on the boys’ part.

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      29 days ago

      The sheriff’s office said the woman, who was not at the home, had called deputies before the shooting to report two trespassers on her property. She also called Metz, who drove over to the home and allegedly blocked the teen’s car from leaving, KUSA reported. Metz then got out of his vehicle and is alleged to have fired one round through the windshield of the teen’s car, the station reported.

      He blocked them in the property then shot them in their car

      • klisurovi4@midwest.social
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        29 days ago

        Yes, that is absolutely insane, I agree, and I am not trying to justify his actions. I just wanted to point out that it’s not like some kids walked up to the door and got shot they were in fact trespassing, so the headline is a bit misleading.

        • Flax@feddit.uk
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          29 days ago

          By that logic the postman, politicians canvassing, the neighbour’s child who lost their ball, are all trespassing.

          • Maalus@lemmy.world
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            29 days ago

            If someone doesn’t want you on their property, then yes. Hopping a fence is already pretty much blatant trespassing.

              • Maalus@lemmy.world
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                29 days ago

                When there’s a fence, you don’t know the owner? Yes, absolutely. First of all, you don’t know what’s on the property. Lifestock can get spooked. There could be livestock guardian dogs. You could get shot. At the end of the day you don’t look any different from a thied / burglar trying to get into the house.

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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          29 days ago

          The intention is to stop criminals from leaving a crime. Citizens arrests in america are a thing, and some glorify the idea.

          In america, guns are tools like forks and knives. Keep em on your hip, forget they are there type of thing. Other countries would grab a bat or stick, americans grab guns. Its intimidation either way but when you mishandle a stick nothing happens.

          Mishandling a firearm happens to every firearm owner at least once, and mishandling a firearm can result in unintended death and destruction.

          • socphoenix@midwest.social
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            29 days ago

            In the US (including Colorado), citizens arrests are only legal for felonies. Last I checked hopping a fence isn’t a felony so blocking them in and waving a gun is just a multitude of gun crimes and kidnapping charges even if he didn’t shoot one of them.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              25 days ago

              I don’t think a gun should be involved in the first place. Legally speaking its possible you could argue you thought they were committing a felony. Breaking and entering us a felony in most places.

              Thats all just to show how awful the system is built in America.

          • diskmaster23@lemmy.one
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            29 days ago

            It sounds like the argument you made is to limit the use of firearms to reduce the amount of accidents.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              25 days ago

              Yeah that would be the very basic idea. The general population simply is not capable of handling guns on the scale it currently is.

              Gun ownership needs to be based on actual need rather than fear.

      • Ben Hur Horse Race@lemm.ee
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        29 days ago

        yes, taking out your locked and loaded pistol, pointing it at someone with your finger on the trigger and it going off, in your mind, is an accidental discharge

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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          29 days ago

          Apparently its called negligent discharge now as ive learned but yes. If you don’t intend to shoot and you shoot, thats what it is.

          He should still be charged for that and have to pay for damages and such, but its different than murderous councilman attempts to give teen facelift.

      • Fermion@feddit.nl
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        29 days ago

        You never point a gun at something you don’t intend to shoot. There has to be a whole chain of wrong decisions for an accidental discharge to hit someone. If he had accidentally shot the ground, this wouldn’t have made national news.

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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          29 days ago

          I agree. Still different than what the article title implies happened. And quite a lot of people won’t read the article, or the whole article.

          The title implies an enraged or insane councilman shot a random teen in the face on sight.

          What actually happened the councilman mishandled his gun and shot someone.

          Still awful right? Why would he even have the gun out? But not quite the same thing.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              29 days ago

              Thats the point I’m trying to make.

              Everyone’s arguing about how to perfectly handle a gun so you don’t ever make mistakes, rather than talking about how everyone makes mistakes and that mistakes with guns are deadly.

              Maybe there shouldnt be more guns than people out there.

          • Mesophar@lemm.ee
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            29 days ago

            If someone got shot, the rest of it is sort of moot, isn’t it? Responding to trespassers by pulling out a gun is insane to begin with, if the trespassers aren’t doing anything else to imply a threat. Blocking the trespassers from leaving the property is bad enough, but to then threaten then with a gun is horrendous in its own right. Pointing that gun at them is insane unless he intended to shoot them.

            If he was shooting targets for practice and had a lapse of judgement and accidentally shot someone, sure, that is a different situation. If you knowingly and intentionally point a gun at someone and “accidentally” shoot them, I don’t see how that is any different than intentionally shooting them, other than the timing of when you pull the trigger.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              29 days ago

              You are right it doesnt change that the person is shot. Guilt and sentencing are separate things. I think this person is guilty of shooting someone, but as far as punishment goes, the intention does matter.

              • Mesophar@lemm.ee
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                28 days ago

                I think the difference between our positions is that I believe pointing a loaded weapon at someone should be considered as intending to kill that person, at least until evidence and circumstance can determine otherwise. Because aiming a weapon at someone is more than just a threat that you will use it against then, it is taking physical action to prepare to use it against them.

                • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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                  25 days ago

                  I’d honestly like to hear the councilman’s version of events, as in what he actually intended to do.

                  That said I agree with you it should likely be intent regardless of what you meant to do with it.

                  My guess would be he would argue he was just brandishing, or was aiming at the car.

                  I don’t like people being so casual with guns, its disturbing how widespread it is.

      • Kaity@leminal.space
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        29 days ago

        Glad to know I can do anything and just say “oopsie” afterwards and you’ll be there to back me up.

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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          25 days ago

          Funny how you think I’m excusing it. Intent changes things, but only slightly.

          Is it just that the nuance of things is scary to think about? That things might not be as easy and simple as going with your gut reaction?

      • Gerudo@lemm.ee
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        29 days ago

        Rule number one of gun ownership, never point a gun at anything you do not wish to destroy.

        This is a rule BECAUSE of accidental discharges.

  • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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    29 days ago

    Great, another article with a misleading headline, and when you read the article the crucial bit is in the last line, where its mentioned its likely an accidental discharge.

    Seems like other news sources are mentioning this more explicitly.

    Still shouldnt be waving guns around, or have them at all IMO, but thats no excuse for the poor framing of the article by the author.

    Edit: I get it, we call them negligent discharges now. Doesnt change my point. This is not a random fit of murderous rage, its a mishandled firearm.

    Can’t talk about how dangerous guns are though right.

    • teft@lemmy.world
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      29 days ago

      Accidental discharges don’t exist. They are called negligent discharges because guns don’t fire accidentally.

      • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        29 days ago

        …guns dont fire accidentally

        Oh yes they do, and its a contingency in any theater of war. New guns are required to be safer but old guns that are less safe still exist and are in use. I was raised shooting guns well older than I was…or am.

        And they can misfire which often means clearing a cartridge that might still go off. Fun times.

        • theneverfox@pawb.social
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          28 days ago

          They can definitely misfire, but humans are more likely to misfire

          When the adrenaline is pumping, it’s real easy to squeeze slightly harder… That’s why your finger shouldn’t be on the trigger until you’re ready to shoot

          You want to tell me your gun shot two rounds instead of one? I can believe that. You want to tell me a cold gun, with a round in the chamber for more than 5 seconds, suddenly decided to override the required mechanical safety because you waved it around?

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        29 days ago

        Okay sure, I’ll try and remember the new term. The guy did still fuck up but he didnt get out in a homicidal rage and shoot someone in the face before even saying a word.

        This is someone mishandling a gun who should know better because of their standing in the community, and I think a short prison term wouldnt be crazy for this.

        • teft@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          You only point guns at things you want to destroy. This was completely avoidable. I knew guys kicked out of the army for negligent discharges that didn’t hit anything. Hitting someone in the face should be a lengthy prison term.

          • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            28 days ago

            This [is what] I was taught handling firearms in the eighties. So imagine my surprise and distress seeing the police lines during the Ferguson unrest standing or walking with their guns pointed at the crowd. One unintended discharge by law enforcement could have been disaster.

            We’ve gone batshit bizarro regarding guns in the US.

            • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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              28 days ago

              Thank you, thats the point I’m making. Not defending the councilman, pointing out how dangerous guns are in american culture and how easy they are to acquire.

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            29 days ago

            I agree, shouldnt matter if he hit him or not. We don’t know he even intended to point the gun at the people in the car though, if he apparently pulls his gun out with his finger wrapped around the trigger, then who’s to say he has a great understanding of what the guns pointing at.

            Its far too easy to get a gun in America, its far too easy to mishandle guns, even if you are an expert, which means we are going to continue having this awful stuff happen in huge numbers.

            Every poster in this post who has mentioned how to safely use a weapon has broken one of those rules at least once. They just haven’t killed someone yet.

            • teft@lemmy.world
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              29 days ago

              its far too easy to mishandle guns, even if you are an expert

              Every poster in this post who has mentioned how to safely use a weapon has broken one of those rules at least once.

              Incorrect. Some of us were professionally trained to handle weapons safely. I’ve never violated a gun handling rule after I learned them. I think you’re projecting a bit.

              If you violate the rules of gun handling then you shouldn’t be able to own or handle one.

              • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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                29 days ago

                You just made a caveat I didnt. You mishandled a gun before in your life, by your own admission. You were lucky you didnt hurt someone or yourself.

                This thinking we can be perfectly in control 100% of the time is why we have this problem to begin with.

        • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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          29 days ago

          I see you’ve never taken a gun safety class. There are rules you’re supposed to follow to prevent exactly this kind of shit. Responsible gun owners are absolutely anal about following those rules. And they’re really simple rules. Here’s the version from gunpro.com:

          1. Treat all guns as if they are always loaded.
          2. Never let the muzzle point at anything that you are not willing to destroy.
          3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target and you have made the decision to shoot.
          4. Be sure of your target and what is behind it.
        • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          oh you were there?

          because the limited reporting on this incident doesn’t back up your premise. What we do know: he intentionally blocked in another vehicle with his own, took his firearm out and aimed it at the kid’s head. Where it miraculously fired ALL ON IT’S OWN uh huh.

          We don’t know what was said.

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            28 days ago

            We know what he said as the gun fired and how he reacted, based on the victims friends testimony. Its still awful, its just different awful. Like instead of just wondering why some psycho would shoot someone on sight, we should talk about how dangerous mistakes with a gun are, and how capable anyone is of making a fatal mistake.

            Shout out your four rules all you want, they don’t keep anyone safe in the way y’all think they do. They are a morality test so those with guns don’t have to feel guilty for putting their entire family in danger just to puff up their ego.

            • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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              28 days ago

              Shout out your four rules all you want

              you’re mixing up your replies. I’m prior service and want fewer weapons of war in the hands of civilians. I’m sick of the bang bang ra ra crowd, get fucked if you think I’m on their side.

              that said: you treat every weapon as if it’s loaded and never point it at anything you’re not ready to light up. that’s just common fucking sense.

              • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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                25 days ago

                Sorry I meant that more as a generalization, its in these comments a ton.

                I agree with you except there is no such thing as common sense. Everyone has to learn every single thing they know, none of it was a given. I don’t like saying common sense gun handling because it implies its so obvious it doesnt need to be taught, and it also detracts from the real answer which is removing guns from the public.

        • LotrOrc@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          I normally point a gun at things I don’t intend to shoot as well… That makes total sense

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            28 days ago

            Sure, you are perfect. Got it. You totally deserve guns. Hope you practice the unspoken 5th rule of locking them up correctly. More likely to be used on a family member than an intruder.

            Must have some scary family members huh.

    • some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org
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      29 days ago

      This is not a random fit of murderous rage, its a mishandled firearm.

      Drawing a gun is murderous because it suggests an intent to use it. If you don’t draw a gun, you don’t accidentally shoot someone. Words can solve a lot of problems. There’s really no need for violence and assuming it’s needed is flawed logic.

      • DeceasedPassenger@lemmy.world
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        29 days ago

        Just to add on to your excellent point here, this is often outlined in many forms of training. Never draw if you don’t intend to use it. Brandishing is the stupidest shit possible.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        29 days ago

        I agree with this morally. I think the law in america doesnt agree with that but I’m not a lawyer.

        People open carry guns all over, including in ways that most would consider brandishing them.

        I think the real takeaway from this shooting is that when accidents with guns happen, people can get hurt or die, and its impossible to make everyone accident less, so to even own one is inherently dangerous.

        Because of that, you should have to have a real need to put that sort of danger on those around you.

        Everytime this happens we have the same list of replies saying they were just a bad person with a gun, they should just allow good people to have guns. Funny how every single poster here is one of those good people based on their own analysis.

        • Depending on the state. In some states, you haven’t committed a crime until the weapon is discharged, and then not a seious one until it hits something important. But that can change based on the race and circumstances of the gunman. Most counties really don’t like black men carrying guns.

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            28 days ago

            Are there states that actually code racism like that into law or does it just bear out with the statistics?

            I only know my home state laws really, and its legal here to walk around with a rifle on your back. Although last time someone tried that in my town the police came and followed him for a few hours.

            • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              28 days ago

              Ever since the civil rights movement and the overturn of the Jim Crow laws (and the establishment of the right to interracial marriage), laws to prevent gun ownership based on race (even by implication, such as based on neighborhood) have been successfully challenged, but that doesn’t stop the police rushing to escalation once it’s established a someone has a gun, and blacks are represented disproportionately in officer-involved homicide.

              But I can’t say I have the data specifically regarding armed black suspects verses armed white suspects. Still if you’re black in Missouri or Mississippi (or Oakland, California – the US teems with a lot of racial-tension hot zones) then yes, the police are more likely to escalate a situation or shoot at you than if you are white, but that’s true regardless if you have a gun.

              Also blacks are convicted of crimes, violent or otherwise, statistically more often than whites with less evidence, and are given harsher sentences than whites for the same crimes, and this includes possession of illegal firearms. I suspect it’s harder for nonwhites to get concealed-carry permits in states they are needed.

              (My impression is no-one really likes open-carry in urban or suburban regions. Even here in California, there are rural towns where one could carry a rifle on their back, at least during hunting season, especially since the local economies depend on hunting tourism. So you’re not going to be bothered by the county sheriff along the California / Nevada border the way you would say, in the Bay Area.)

              The killing of Philando Castile in 2016 serves as an example of what blacks fear. He was pulled over for a broken tail-light, announced he was armed to Officer Jeronimo Yanez of the St. Anthony PD. Yanez freaked out and shot Castile seven times, two of which penetrated his heart. (Of note is that in the last thirteen years, Castile had been pulled over 39 times in that area for broken tail-light type offenses.) Yanez was tried and acquitted. He was removed from that precinct but as far as we know Yanez is serving as law enforcement elsewhere.

              • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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                25 days ago

                I see what you mean thats very insightful.

                I was mainly wondering if there were laws in some states that explicitly state some sort of racism in the letter of the law.

                Thats not to say thats a requirement to believe the things you said, I just thought at the very least racist laws were more indirect in how they are racist.

    • Ben Hur Horse Race@lemm.ee
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      29 days ago

      she took a loaded gun out and pointed it at the windshield. it goes off. says it was an accidential discharge. you believe it. you go and type it on the internet.

        • Frozengyro@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          It’s a rule of firearm safety. Unfortunately, in the US you don’t need to follow those or many rules for ownership.

          4 rules of firearm safety:

          1-treat every firearm as if it’s loaded

          2-don’t point your firearm at anything you don’t intend to destroy

          3-keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire

          4-know your target, backstop, and beyond

          Bonus 5- don’t do anything stupid

        • Jo Miran@lemmy.ml
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          29 days ago

          Yes. There is also supposed to be “trigger discipline”. Your finger should be kept to the side and not on the trigger until you intend to shoot.

          In the US, in order to drive a scooter (like a Vespa) you need to take a basic motorcycle safety class. No such requirement exists to carry a gun.

        • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          Yeah. This is bullshit. The person took a gun out and pointed it at someone. There’s nothing accidental about that. You’re 100% right, you never point a gun at something/one you don’t intend to shoot. So this soft apologist language of “accidental” doesn’t fly.

        • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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          29 days ago

          Absolutely, and I think this person should be charged for it. I don’t think its accurate to say he got out of his truck and immediately decided to shoot them in the face.

          This should be a discussion about how easy it is to mishandle a gun. All these people quoting the four rules just haven’t broken them lately, but they have broken them.

          Its impossible to be safe around guns when people are involved. Name a place and group of people that is safe with guns and I’ll show you an example of one of them using them incorrectly.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        29 days ago

        The victims said it. Like I said, still wrong, but different wrong. Nuance is dead to you people.

        Oh and my favorite part is where pointing out details means I’m defending someone else.

        The guy should go to prison for it. Does that make you happy?

    • mojofrododojo@lemmy.world
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      29 days ago

      accidental discharge.

      HE AIMED HIS FIREARM AT A CHILD IN A VEHICLE.

      Accidental discharge my ass, you don’t play with firearms you treat them as if they’re loaded and ready to go at all times BECAUSE LAZINESS KILLS PEOPLE.

      An accidental discharge goes into the sky or the ground. This fucker was AIMING AT THE KIDS HEAD.

      • AlphaOmega@lemmy.world
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        28 days ago

        Sounds like BS. Everyone knows you only point a gun at something you intend to destroy, and you keep the safety on until you are absolutely sure. This guy did neither, he’s just lying at this point.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        28 days ago

        He intended to citizens arrest or something along those lines. He didnt intend to shoot though, which doesn’t change much, but I at least think an accident is different than on purpose.

        Still guilty of something, and honestly wouldnt be too shocked if the charge was the same regardless.

        • Entropywins@lemmy.world
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          28 days ago

          If you point a gun at someone, you are trying to kill them…there is no other way of thinking about it or you end up like this guy. It’d be the same as me pushing a needle to my vein and going woopsie. I didn’t mean to get high. The needle only has one purpose to penetrate the vein. Same as a gun, it’s not a warning tool it’s not a citizen arrest tool it has one purpose to kill, that’s it.

    • RoquetteQueen@sh.itjust.works
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      29 days ago

      I don’t think anyone outside of the US is going to care at all about this distinction. I know I don’t. Accidentally shooting someone because you’re an idiot with a gun is just another reason why people shouldn’t be allowed to own and carry guns.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        25 days ago

        The reason I bring it up is because americans are again going to say this was just an idiot with a gun.

        He took training classes just like everyone else in here shouting about gun safety. He is a town councilman. He is not an idiot with a gun, he’s an above average example of an American, which should be terrifying.

        The takeaway here is that America has too few regulations on firearms. In fact it should be flipped, where noone gets a gun unless they have a proven need for one.

    • Rivalarrival@lemmy.today
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      28 days ago

      This wasn’t “negligence” or “accidental”. He was deliberately pointing the gun at the individual. It wasn’t unintentionally pointed at him. It wasn’t accidentally pointed at him. The bullet didn’t unexpectedly ricochet off of something to hit the teen. He deliberately chose to point a gun at another person. That deliberate handling of the gun eliminates the possibility of “negligence”.

      I don’t quite know how you didn’t, but you managed to piss off both gun owners and hoplophobes with that comment, and those groups can’t seem to agree on anything else.

      • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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        29 days ago

        When you leave stuff out, peoples brains fill in the blanks.

        What did you expect the story would be about? And how many people in this thread posted stuff that was contradicted by the content of the article.

        Do you want a better example of a headline?

        • Crazyslinkz@lemmy.world
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          29 days ago

          Yes, please give me an example. Titles are supposed to be short and concise. The teen was shot in the face. The Title doesn’t say it was intentionally or accidentally.

          Are you saying that the title should be a paragraph long and include all details in the article?

          • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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            25 days ago

            It should be designed to summarize the most relevant parts of the article. In this case its designed to get an emotional response, which is manipulation.

            I will agree its not explicitly misleading, but there are better headlines for this story out there. Feel free to compare yourself.

            • Crazyslinkz@lemmy.world
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              25 days ago

              Get the fuck outta here…

              Great, another article with a misleading headline,

              I will agree its not explicitly misleading

              You can’t have it both ways is it misleading or not?

              • Rekorse@sh.itjust.works
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                24 days ago

                Explicitly means it literally says misleading words. Implicitly means it leaves out relevant words.

                Its like lieing by omission.

                In my opinion its misleading, but maybe I just have an awful time parsing headlines.

                • Crazyslinkz@lemmy.world
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                  24 days ago

                  You can’t offer a better headline. And you admit its not misleading. Take L and move on. I’m not going to search. It’s your argument to prove. I feel it’s accurate. It’s not misleading; the title is accurate.

                  https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/misleading

                  It, misleading, means to be deceptive, imo, the headline is not deceptive.

                  Edit also trying to change what you originally said. You didn’t say it wasn’t implicit.